Putting the cart before the horse—steroid Q&A

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One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don’t do anything at all
Go ask Alice
When she’s ten feet tall
-Jefferson Airplane “White Rabbit”



Highly evolved humans

Highly evolved humans





Q&A posts accomplish several things. First, they answer questions that readers have, hopefully providing some decent information. Second, they invite a little more commentary than the typical information-only posts. Third, they allow a busy (lazy?) writer to avoid crafting and editing a long original post. So, without totally mailing it in, let’s answer some reader questions before the big article comes out.



“Let’s say you have a trainee who TRULY exhausted their linear gains, ate right, etc. Would taking AAS after one’s linear progression put you back in “linear progression” mode since your recovery rate has increased again?” (Justin C)



Good question. Let’s first talk about what it means to truly exhaust linear progression. Justin has previously mentioned how most people don’t finish linear progression. I would add the word “properly” as a modifier. I finished linear progression a couple years ago in that I added weight until I couldn’t anymore. However, I didn’t always eat or rest properly, so my recovery limited my progress. I exhausted linear progression per se, but I left about 15-40 pounds on each lift.



On the other hand, Justin and a handful of other guys did it right. I’m here to tell you that watching a guy train through his last weeks of linear progression is both inspiring and difficult. The amount of concentration and effort required to do this is staggering. Every set of squats looks like a five rep max—and it is. Yet they get under the bar and do it again two days later.



I recently spotted Brian (you’ve seen one of his videos) squatting 505 for three sets of five. I didn’t think he would finish his first set, yet he stood up with all 15 reps. It was amazing, and it looked like it nearly killed him. He looked to be within two workouts of finishing linear progression. Yet he went another month. I cannot overstate the amount of dedicated eating and resting this requires. That is what it takes to truly exhaust linear gains.



To answer Justin C’s question (finally!), yes, supplementation will yield more gains out of linear progression. And by more gains, I mean you will be linearly progressing for a longer period of time. We all have some “endpoint” by which we will exhaust linear gains. That endpoint is affected by genetics, training, and recovery factors. Steroids improve recovery by (simply speaking) enhancing anabolic (building) processes and minimizing and speeding up catabolic (tearing down) processes. By taking steroids, you are just moving your linear progression endpoint to the right (graphically speaking).



Rip has condemned steroid use for anyone on linear progression, and I agree. The consistent but modest loading and muscle building one experiences on linear progression helps the body and the nervous system adapt to increasing loads at a proper pace. Taking steroids and adding fifteen pounds to your squat every workout (instead of ten or five) spells trouble for a novice lifter who is still learning to squat correctly. It also robs you of the opportunity to truly find out what it takes—mentally and physically—to recover from this type of program.



So if you’re going to supplement steroids—and I’m not saying you should—you should wait until you’re nearly at the end of linear progression to do so. And I’m talking about the real dues-have-been-paid end of it. For example, if you reset your squat at 405 and again at 415, starting at a cycle at the third drop-down might get you to 435-445 (whereas you would have petered out at 420 before).



Natural or enhanced?

Natural or enhanced?





“How much of the gains made on steroids persist after going off steroids if you were near your physical strength limits before steroids?” (Dr. McFacekick)
It depends what you were taking, how much, and how you come off.



What you’re taking matters because some gear can be anabolic (promotes cell growth), androgenic (promotes virilization, or male characteristics), or both. As such, some are good for getting bigger and stronger, some are good for getting stronger but not bigger, and some are good for cutting fat while maintaining muscle mass (with no effect on strength).



A lot of the bulking agents (especially the heavy androgens) imply some amount of water retention, so true muscle size is inflated anyway on cycle. The question becomes how much of our non-water bulk do we keep when we come off cycle.



Generally speaking, you’ll maintain a greater percentage of your gains made off the milder (high anabolic/low androgenic) drugs. However, you will realize a greater net gain off of stronger gear (high anabolic and androgenic), assuming you come off properly.



Coming off properly refers to ending your cycle. When you’re on, your body stops producing its own testosterone in the presence of the artificial hormone. If you’re using a high enough dosage, some of the excess is being converted to estrogen in a process known as aromatization (this will all be covered). So you are in a situation where you have a surplus of estrogen but aren’t producing any testosterone. If you have ever dated an irrational woman (redundant?), you know how unstable this can be. So imagine quitting cold turkey and living like this.



Low test--high estrogen doesnt end well.

Low test--high estrogen doesn't end well.





The answer, of course, is to come off properly. This will be covered in detail later, but the simple course of dealing is to
1) address the estrogen issue by reducing androgens and taking a SERM (estrogen inhibitor) as you come off;
2) restart natural testosterone production with HCG (gets the testes fired back up);
3) reset your hormone axis with Clomid;
4) deal with any outstanding Cortisol issues with Clenbuterol; and
5) adjust your diet to deal with your old hormonal patterns.



This is not as hard as it sounds. And if it is done properly, you can keep a lot of your gains.



How much you are taking affects the gains you keep. When talking steroids, more is better in terms of gains. If you’re taking a small dose or a replacement dose, you can keep a lot of gains because the human body “understands” those hormone levels. However, if you’re taking 2 grams a week, i.e. super natural levels, your body will not be able to maintain those gains because the levels are so artificially high.



So it’s not a simple answer. If you run a low dose of testosterone for 12 weeks and come off properly, you can expect to 3-8 pounds (or more in some cases) of lean body mass, which is incredible over a three month period. If you’re popping Anadrol-50 from a Pez dispenser, nah, you don’t get to keep that.



Damn!

Damn!





“But isn’t steroid supplementation cheating?” (Everyone)



This is going to be the discussion question of the day.


There are a lot of variables, but let’s confine it to this:
1) Steroids are banned substances in professional sports;
2) They are banned because they give a performance edge over someone who doesn’t take them;
3) Professional athletes take them because they give a competitive edge; and
4) Professional athletes have to take them to stay competitive with other athletes who are using.



Is it cheating? Absolutely. But cheating becomes a relative term in professional sports. It’s like playing poker where everybody is looking at everybody else’s cards.



Discuss.



———————–
Questions not answered here will be addressed in the forthcoming article.



It’s PR Friday, boys and girls. Post up weights lifted, calories consumed, or functional fitness gurus made of fun of. Natural, assisted, or otherwise. We’re a big tent here.


107 thoughts on “Putting the cart before the horse—steroid Q&A”

  1. I use to have a problem with roids. But now I simply look at it as another tool. The god given talent isn”t born out of steroids. You must work hard to develop those set of skills to be a professional . Skills that are only gained through trial and era, true workmanship. I believe steroids show the absolute full potential of the athlete. To put it this way, if your 1MR deadlift with no straps is 450. Knowing you have the legs and back strength to pull 470. But lack in the hand strength. Do you or do you not go and get the fucking hand straps and pull to your full potential? If you get the hand straps are you cheating?Steroids is a tool to simply better your performance and to stay competitive. You have steroids or creatine, big gains or little gains? You have whole milk or low fat milk, big gains or little gains? You have bacon or turkey bacon, big gains or little gains? The question is this, do you want big gains or little gains? Do you want to see full potential? Steroids are at the top of the food chain when your taking a supplement, period!

  2. And I don”t have any PR”s… I have been ill for the last couple of months and have lost about 20lbs from it. But started back last week lifting. My last PR between 155 160 BW, BS 315 once. Now my weight is very low 140s. But i”m only 5”5 Mr. Rippetoe told me I should be at 180 or so. Totally agree and have every intention of getting there as soon as I”m well.

  3. Whoo. Bodyweight 187. Squat 315, bench 225, DL 395, all for 5, all PRs.

    That whole coming off business sounds wicked complicated. I also appreciated the bit about truly exhausting linear progression. I don”t know if my eating-fu is strong enough for that…

  7. “If a man gains the world and loses his soul, what has he accomplished?”

    I seriously doubt any of you out there following this site are professional athletes competing for multi-million dollar contracts, so why are we having this conversation about steroids? And rationalizing their use by saying you only use them to “recover or promote healing” is a cop-out. You can spin it however you want, but steroids are performance enhancers. And if you are “enhancing your performance” then I say shame on you and any PR you accomplish is complete bullshit. You would not have accomplished such feats if not for doping. Illbegotten gains! And you are not a clean lifter if you cycle off of “recovering and healing” in time to compete in a meet. Unless they are prescribed by a doctor on a temporary basis for legitimate medical reasons, I say do what you can with what you”ve got. That way you can look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day and not be ashamed.

    Gant…we go way back (frat) brother. Please tell me you do not advocate the use of steroids.

    Are dissenters allowed, or will this post be deleted?

  8. The ja-oose isn”t cheating in pro sports…it”s pretty much a given if you want to be elite..sure some pro”s that break some crazy numbers are clean, but these are the .0001 percent of the world population, in terms of luck of no major ijuries and genetic gifts. For the average joe? If someone walked up and offered me some free gear, I”d be hard pressed not to take it….I”m nearing the end of my linear gains…maybe 2 more months and while I”m not considering roids, if you want to take em…go nuts. The funniest thing is that I work part time at a globo and we have a dozen or so gearheads who NEVER and I mean NEVER squat or deadlift…what a waste of good hormones…..

  12. I don”t have the funds or the desire to mess around with steroids but I certainly appreciate the knowledge.
    I have 4 PRs this week:
    BP: 295lbx1
    SP: 200lbx1
    Chinup: BW+115lbx1
    DL: 585X1

    Lisa: Eh, maybe your getting stronger.
    Homer: Well, I have been eating more!

  13. Weighed in at 201 tonight at six feet tall.

    Squat: 260×5/3
    Bench: 235×5/3
    Deadift: 355×5
    Power clean: 150×3/5

    All PR”s.

    Stuck on 140 for presses. Hitting five reps on first and second sets, but sticking on three or four on number three. Reset next week.

  15. Quality post, Gant. Leaves me wanting to learn more.

    Does anyone have the skinny on drugs/products taht claim to stimulate your nads to naturally produce more testosterone?

  16. 380x3x5
    14in rip in shorts while setting a squat pr
    farted during squats and started laughing with 375 on my back

    feel like im nearing the end of linear progression. every day is a huge mental test

    first weightlifting meet tomorrow…

  18. Tried to put links in to vids of my new pr”s, but it seems that makes the post require moderation. So here I”m posting again.

    Sumo DL 502 @ 181
    Low Bar SQ 405x3x3 @ 181 (last rep was a wee bit high)
    Low Bar SQ 430 @ 179

    Cutting weight to lift in 82.5 at meet next Saturday.

  19. powerclean 75.5kg 5×3
    DL 153kg 1×5

    I agree with the stance that steroids are a tool. As a 23 year old novice I don”t think the side effects outweigh the benefits, but when I”m much older and natural hormones decline, it may be something I would seriously consider.

  20. Thought I”d add another question. It seems that powerlifting is one of the only (indeed the only one I know of) sports that has compartmentalized drug testing, to the extent that in many federations the lifter chooses whether to lift at a tested or untested meet. This is also reflected in the distinction between amateur and pro.
    It seems this has been embraced to the extent that lifters can, without being judged, lift wherever they want. This takes the cheating out of the equation – just lift in a non-tested meet.
    I think it would be interesting to see/discuss how this has affected the image of powerlifting both from within and outside of the community. Also, whether there is still a problem (especially in the USA) with drug use in tested federations. I realize that the game is slightly different in the rest of the world, as the IPF is often the only fed, and does not offer untested meets.

  21. What”s missing from this discussion is the health affects.

    What is the risk of a teenager dosing while his body is going though a lot of natural development and changes?

    What is the risk of long term dosage?

    What is the risk of dosing without proper supervision…which is probably a lot of the cases?

    The issue I have with football usage is that players are getting bigger and faster than the frame and head seems to be able to handle given the increased energy of the collisions.

    Baseball usage hurts the integrity of the statistics and baseball is a stat driven sport.

    All that aside, the real question is health risks from steroid usage itself and in the case of football potential higher risk of injury from bigger, more powerful athletes.

  27. BW PR this week: 205#

    As for steriods, if they”re banned in your sport and you use them anyway, that”s cheating. I see no fuzz on this particular peach. The fact that others are also cheating is immaterial.

    If you need to cheat to make a living for your family, that”s something you need to work out with your own conscience. Other people, like lawyers and businessmen are also faced with analogous moral dilemmas.

    If you are a run-of-the-mill amateur trainee like me, I don”t really see the point of steroid use when weighed against the risks. Ultimately though, it”s a personal judgment call.

  28. AAS Discussion-

    Not trying to be argumentative, but does anyone know the long term risks associated with vitamin C, or any vitamin or mineral for that matter?

    You could certainly have serious issues if overdosed with anything. The difference here is education, a educated user does not get information from the media, which chooses to use scare tactics and mis guided information to deter young athletes from using. Good intentions, but I think proper research and education is the way to go.

  29. After a half a week on GOMAD + another week on GOMAD and SS, I am up 18 lbs from what I used to wrestle.

    162 to 180, and I still have a huge amount of weight to gain!

  31. Can someone please recommend me a good weight lifting belt? I live in Toronto and they all sell nylon “grizzly” belts. I”m willing to order a good belt online, but I don”t know much about what”s good even through searching google. I”m 5”10 170 (34 in waist) what size should I be looking to get?

    thanks guys.

  33. First powerlifting meet here in Montreal today. I learned a lot of valuable lessons:
    – squat deeper
    – squat deeper
    – squat deeper
    Got first easy squat attempt (145kg – 320lbs) right, but missed the 2nd and 3rd attempts for lack of proper depth.
    Bench (no shirt) was easier (got 105kg and 115kg – 253lbs), but missed 3rd attempt – again lack of proper technique probably explains why.
    Got all 3 deadlift attempts : 180kg, 190kg, and 200kg (440lbs).
    So its a first total of 460kg (1014lbs) at 196lbs bw (5”9””).

    I”ve been doing strength training for less and 6 months, but moved waaaayyyy too soon to intermediate programming. Over the past few weeks I went back a simple starting strength template and found I could still make linear gains.

    I”ll wait til I see Jesus at the bottom of my squat and get confirmation from him I can move on to intermediate programming. Until then I”ll need to train harder, and eat and sleep more.

    Can”t wait for the 2nd meet (in 3-4 months” time).

  35. still cant do heavy presses. but my shoulder is def gettin better!

    Squat PR 5×3 335lbs
    DL PR 5×1 385lbs
    body weight PR 184lbs at 5”10″
    lost 5lbs last week due to bein sick gaind 6lbs back this week.

  36. Holymad – congrats on your first meet! Great numbers for your first time out. Glad to hear you”re planning your second meet. What federation did you compete in?

  38. I don”t understand how steroids are considered cheating. Granted, I feel people jump to steroid use way too soon within their training career. Much like uninformed people who buy all sorts of supplements boasting to aid their recovery, training, and nutrition when in reality they need to get the basics down before hitting the special stuff. Supplements do exactly what their name entails – they give you the extra things you need to maintain such an active/rigorous lifestyle. They shouldn”t be one”s excuse for success or failure. Plus, I recognize the athletes, lifters, and bodybuilders who use as respectable performers, not cheaters, because they put in the colossal work to achieve greatness.

    TL;DR
    Don”t use steroids too soon, or if you aren”t competitive.

  39. hey, this is becky. saul got me a belt for valentine”s day. i used it for the first time tonight and PR”d in the deadlift. 204 lbs.

    all my other lifts are painfully stuck. i”m losing patience.

  42. This guy is using the power of being a giant Russian in addition to probably using lots of steroids.

    DL 390kg (860lbs) X 3 without a suit and double overhand grip. I was pretty impressed.

  43. @ Mr. Blink

    We were joking around, and I told her if she didn”t smarten up I was gonna put her on a nearby shelf about 15” in the air, she said I couldn”t lift her, I said I could, She doubtfully told me to try.

  45. Couple of questions.. firstly, how long of a gap can you have between lifts before it is no longer a set? I ask because my deadlift reps are not exactly 1-2-3-4-5, done in twenty seconds. Secondly, when you reach the intermediate programming stage, do you then dial back the massive calorie consumption because your gains (and size increase) and so much slower?
    Thanks.

    After the initial “learning how to deadlift” phase, a set really is not a set if your hands leave the bar, unless there is a problem.

    –Justin

  46. Jacob: thanks. The meet was under IPF rules (Canadian Powerlifting Union).

    There were some great lifters at this meet, including a 38kg woman (in the masters category) who I believe deadlifted 120kg, more than 3 times her bodyweight.

  47. Good article, although I don”t remember saying that :)

    PR”s this week:

    OHP 90lbx 3×5
    Bench 117.5x3x5

    Linear gains are awesome, every week is a PR week :)

    Oh, and I got called a “viking”

  49. I”ve liked this site right from the start because it revolves around my two favourite subjects: lifting heavy and eat like a beast.

    But really, I find the last entries about artificial enhancement quite off-putting.

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