One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don’t do anything at all
Go ask Alice
When she’s ten feet tall
-Jefferson Airplane “White Rabbit”
Highly evolved humans
Q&A posts accomplish several things. First, they answer questions that readers have, hopefully providing some decent information. Second, they invite a little more commentary than the typical information-only posts. Third, they allow a busy (lazy?) writer to avoid crafting and editing a long original post. So, without totally mailing it in, let’s answer some reader questions before the big article comes out.
“Let’s say you have a trainee who TRULY exhausted their linear gains, ate right, etc. Would taking AAS after one’s linear progression put you back in “linear progression” mode since your recovery rate has increased again?” (Justin C)
Good question. Let’s first talk about what it means to truly exhaust linear progression. Justin has previously mentioned how most people don’t finish linear progression. I would add the word “properly” as a modifier. I finished linear progression a couple years ago in that I added weight until I couldn’t anymore. However, I didn’t always eat or rest properly, so my recovery limited my progress. I exhausted linear progression per se, but I left about 15-40 pounds on each lift.
On the other hand, Justin and a handful of other guys did it right. I’m here to tell you that watching a guy train through his last weeks of linear progression is both inspiring and difficult. The amount of concentration and effort required to do this is staggering. Every set of squats looks like a five rep max—and it is. Yet they get under the bar and do it again two days later.
I recently spotted Brian (you’ve seen one of his videos) squatting 505 for three sets of five. I didn’t think he would finish his first set, yet he stood up with all 15 reps. It was amazing, and it looked like it nearly killed him. He looked to be within two workouts of finishing linear progression. Yet he went another month. I cannot overstate the amount of dedicated eating and resting this requires. That is what it takes to truly exhaust linear gains.
To answer Justin C’s question (finally!), yes, supplementation will yield more gains out of linear progression. And by more gains, I mean you will be linearly progressing for a longer period of time. We all have some “endpoint” by which we will exhaust linear gains. That endpoint is affected by genetics, training, and recovery factors. Steroids improve recovery by (simply speaking) enhancing anabolic (building) processes and minimizing and speeding up catabolic (tearing down) processes. By taking steroids, you are just moving your linear progression endpoint to the right (graphically speaking).
Rip has condemned steroid use for anyone on linear progression, and I agree. The consistent but modest loading and muscle building one experiences on linear progression helps the body and the nervous system adapt to increasing loads at a proper pace. Taking steroids and adding fifteen pounds to your squat every workout (instead of ten or five) spells trouble for a novice lifter who is still learning to squat correctly. It also robs you of the opportunity to truly find out what it takes—mentally and physically—to recover from this type of program.
So if you’re going to supplement steroids—and I’m not saying you should—you should wait until you’re nearly at the end of linear progression to do so. And I’m talking about the real dues-have-been-paid end of it. For example, if you reset your squat at 405 and again at 415, starting at a cycle at the third drop-down might get you to 435-445 (whereas you would have petered out at 420 before).
Natural or enhanced?
“How much of the gains made on steroids persist after going off steroids if you were near your physical strength limits before steroids?” (Dr. McFacekick)
It depends what you were taking, how much, and how you come off.
What you’re taking matters because some gear can be anabolic (promotes cell growth), androgenic (promotes virilization, or male characteristics), or both. As such, some are good for getting bigger and stronger, some are good for getting stronger but not bigger, and some are good for cutting fat while maintaining muscle mass (with no effect on strength).
A lot of the bulking agents (especially the heavy androgens) imply some amount of water retention, so true muscle size is inflated anyway on cycle. The question becomes how much of our non-water bulk do we keep when we come off cycle.
Generally speaking, you’ll maintain a greater percentage of your gains made off the milder (high anabolic/low androgenic) drugs. However, you will realize a greater net gain off of stronger gear (high anabolic and androgenic), assuming you come off properly.
Coming off properly refers to ending your cycle. When you’re on, your body stops producing its own testosterone in the presence of the artificial hormone. If you’re using a high enough dosage, some of the excess is being converted to estrogen in a process known as aromatization (this will all be covered). So you are in a situation where you have a surplus of estrogen but aren’t producing any testosterone. If you have ever dated an irrational woman (redundant?), you know how unstable this can be. So imagine quitting cold turkey and living like this.
Low test--high estrogen doesn't end well.
The answer, of course, is to come off properly. This will be covered in detail later, but the simple course of dealing is to
1) address the estrogen issue by reducing androgens and taking a SERM (estrogen inhibitor) as you come off;
2) restart natural testosterone production with HCG (gets the testes fired back up);
3) reset your hormone axis with Clomid;
4) deal with any outstanding Cortisol issues with Clenbuterol; and
5) adjust your diet to deal with your old hormonal patterns.
This is not as hard as it sounds. And if it is done properly, you can keep a lot of your gains.
How much you are taking affects the gains you keep. When talking steroids, more is better in terms of gains. If you’re taking a small dose or a replacement dose, you can keep a lot of gains because the human body “understands” those hormone levels. However, if you’re taking 2 grams a week, i.e. super natural levels, your body will not be able to maintain those gains because the levels are so artificially high.
So it’s not a simple answer. If you run a low dose of testosterone for 12 weeks and come off properly, you can expect to 3-8 pounds (or more in some cases) of lean body mass, which is incredible over a three month period. If you’re popping Anadrol-50 from a Pez dispenser, nah, you don’t get to keep that.
Damn!
“But isn’t steroid supplementation cheating?” (Everyone)
This is going to be the discussion question of the day.
There are a lot of variables, but let’s confine it to this:
1) Steroids are banned substances in professional sports;
2) They are banned because they give a performance edge over someone who doesn’t take them;
3) Professional athletes take them because they give a competitive edge; and
4) Professional athletes have to take them to stay competitive with other athletes who are using.
Is it cheating? Absolutely. But cheating becomes a relative term in professional sports. It’s like playing poker where everybody is looking at everybody else’s cards.
Discuss.
———————–
Questions not answered here will be addressed in the forthcoming article.
It’s PR Friday, boys and girls. Post up weights lifted, calories consumed, or functional fitness gurus made of fun of. Natural, assisted, or otherwise. We’re a big tent here.
Squat
410 5×5
Hopefully, I will set two PRs on Saturday. Intensity day.
I feel like I would be cheating if I took steroids. I am proud of the gains I have gotten on my own through hard work. However, the distinction between steroids extending gains versus a shortcut to hard work is important. I suppose at the highest levels its a necessary evil.
Anyway, PR Friday:
Bodyweight 203! Finally, I am an adult male. Up from 176 on Christmas day.
This morning did a PR on Squats (255 for my 3 sets of 5)
PR on Press (125 for 3 sets of 5)
I”m still on linear progression, so every press and squat is a PR.
That was a very interesting read, Gant. As to whether or not using steroids is cheating, I think that”s a tough question to answer. Is the guy going on steroids to be able to compete with others, who are already on, cheating? Is it cheating to do whatever you need to do to keep your livelihood?
Anyway, I worked extra hard for PR Friday this time around so here goes:
BW – Around 81.5kg.
BS – 115kg 5-5-4, insufficient yelling and rest. Going to correct both for next time and still increase weight.
Press – 55kg 3×5. Stalled yesterday with 57.5kg, going to start microloading.
Deadlift – 115kg. Spent a few workouts doing 110kg to get form down, so this will a “correct form” PR as well.
Not many PR””s this week as it was a de-load week for most of the main lifts (on 5-3-1 for squat, deads, and OHP).
Flat Bench – 285×4
GHR – BW+90 2×6
BTW, my wife wants to know if you guys will come out with a 70””s big shirt design for women.
There will be one exclusively for women some time soon.
–Justin
Let me clarify: one that has a woman on it.
I”m all for steroid use. That being said, I think people look to steroids WAY too soon. I think you need to have YEARS under a barbell, perfecting your form, understanding the grind, learning how to gain naturally, etc., before you should even consider using steroids. Overall though, I really don”t mind steroid use, especially as you get older and your test levels drop. It”s definitely a matter of opinion, but I”d like to see more people really grind out their first huge gains before the thought of steroids even enters their head. There are some true dedicated lifters who are merely looking for the next step, but there are also the weak minded “I want it now” lifters who need a gut check.
1 RM Deadlift: 395# (Felt I could”ve gone heavier: 4 plates next time)
Squat: 2×1 355#
I had food poisoning earlier this week: all I could think about were all the calories I was violently expelling from my body. Thanks, 70s Big.
Some nice PRs this week for me.
Squat 315x5x5 (stress day)
Bench 285x5x1 (intensity day)
Press 185x5x1 (last week”s intensity day, forgot to post it).
Still gaining 5# per week on the squat. Back to linear progression of 2# per week on the press and bench. DL has stalled due to grip strength issues, but I have added a bunch of grip work and my reps are coming up even if I am not getting above my current weight. So hopefully I will overcome my weakness there and restart linear progression.
Since im starting my lifts slightly lower so i wont stall early, i probably won”t have any lifting PRs until next week. However, i believe it is noteworthy to mention my biggest meal this week. A Large Deep Dish Veggie Pizza from Pizza Hut followed by half a gallon of whole milk. I felt extremely bloated after it but it was quite a great after eating experience as well.
BS-395x5x3
SP-185x5x3
BP-280x5x3
I was fitted for a tux for an annual ball and I have put 2 inches on my chest since last year. I went from a 44L to a 46L. I will take it. Also hit 201.8 and 12.5% BF on the tanita scale this morning. Been a long time coming but I am finally an adult male of the species.
Two PRs this week,
Deadlift 420×20
Squat 320×20
Hang power clean 220 lbs x1, and squatted 275×5 (big PR!). also, BP 195×2 which is a PR.
Eating wise, I ate 3 burritos from chipotle in one sitting. I went to a “food conference” thinking there would be barbeque everywhere but it turned out the cooks were only making “vegan” stuff. After playing with a stalk of broccoli for 45 minutes, I decided it was time to peace despite all of the female talent and get some food.
305 3×5 sq
360 1×5 deadlift
Bodyweight: 235 at 6”
Squat: 305x5x3, going for 310 tonight
Press: 136x5x3
Bodyweight 199lbs
Squat: 280 3×5
Bench: 195 3×5
Deadlift: 335 1×5
Press: 130 3×5
I don”t think it is immoral for a professional athlete to take steroids b/c they are the masters of their own bodies. It is cheating by definition b/c it breaks the rules, though it is the league”s job–not the players” job–to make sure it doesn”t happen.
385# for a 1 rep back squat PR. i”ll get that 400 sooner or later. also got my WFAC (Join the Fight) and 70s Big t-shirts in the mail, which i consider a PR.
PR”s
Bodyweight = 200kg
Bench = 85kg 5×5
Deadlift = 120kg 5×5
Squat = 100kg 5×5
Press = 55kg 5×5
Also 2kg lamb roast eaten in one day.
Torn t-shirt proving to myself that I could bench more than the 72 year old guy at my gym who benches 103kg.
“But cheating becomes a relative term in professional sports”.
To cheat is to violate rules deliberately. Period. So, it”s never a relative term. It will always be cheating as long as the game rules don”t change.
Does that mean that those rules are good rules? No.
Should you break the rules? Heck! That”s up for to you to decide.
PRs –
Squat 455 x 6
DL 415 x 12
sb
PRs
squat: 285 lbs, 3 x 5
bench: 232.5 lbs, 3 x 5 (235 tomorrow)
power clean: 180 lbs, 5 x 3
size: picked up my new suit the other day. Even bigger than I thought: I”m up to a 48 jacket size, from a 44 three months ago. BW steady around 235, 6”1.
PRs made last week (training cycle ended Saturday)
Military: 190X3
Box Squat: Drop Set: 405X12 – 315X12 – 225X12 – 135X12
Close-Grip Bench: 275X2
Alright. The steroid debate is interesting, but I SERIOUSLY want to know exactly what you all mean on this site when you speak of “linear progression.”
Whenever you speak of linear progression, it always sounds to me like it is exclusively limited to training methods like the SS Novice Program or the Texas Method.
All my questions could be answered with one answer if I knew what linear progression exactly means.
Does “linear progression” mean you add weight to the bar for your 5X5 set every week?
I can think of a lot of good training ideologies that aren””t “linear” in nature. The 5/3/1 Program. Westside””s Conjugate Method. Any sort of Linear Periodization or Block Periodization plan. The Bulgarian training model. Blah, blah, blah.
Or does “linear progression” simply mean “get stronger,” ?
The “linear progression” is how we refer to the Starting Strength Model that is outlined in Starting Strength (the book). It is also talked about in Practical Programming. There is no better way to gain strength efficiently for a novice (defined as how a person adapts to stress, not what they know) than doing a linear progression. You will have to do some research to learn what the rep scheme is, but 5×5 is an extraneous amount of volume for a novice.
–Justin
Training was great on Monday. Hit a PR on presses: 196.25X5X2 and then 196.25X7 (going for AMRAP). Picked up a really bad cold from my two year old and have been out of commission since Monday. Also, got snowed in Wednesday. Hoping to do something productive tonight in the gym.
As for steroids..super gray area. I”m likely to say its not cheating when the playing field is even (aka everyone is on it, whether the rules allow it or not), and likely to say it is cheating when there are large groups that are clean competing. I can”t really say there”s a right answer for every case.
I do think that steroids do get a really bad rep and are unfairly demonized by society and government at large.
Felt like I needed a week off, so I took the opportunity to test 1rm on monday and the rest of the week off.
Squat(parallel box)-455×1
Bench-275×1 (failed 290)
Deadlift-500×1(went up easy)
Penn:
Linear progression refers to programs where weight is added to the bar linearly, no waved loading or anything like that becuase it is geared towards the novice lifters who have the ability to do that exact thing. It is by far the most efficient way to reach the point where you need to start looking at more advanced methods to continue strength gains.
@joeheavyslow,
you are a big dude… BW 200kg? haha, typo i”m sure.
PR”s for this week, BS 405 twice, once when healthy with a 35 and 2-5”s (4 plates had me mentally defeated) and then with 4 plates when i was half sick. i”m really starting to understand the mental focus side of things.
plan for tomorrow is BS 407.5, BP 260, and DL 410. all will be either absolute or rep PRs. BW is around 243…
Penn: NolanPower answered the question. It is called linear because, if you draw a graph (X=training days; y=weight used), there is a straight line as the weight increases linearly.
*It”s not technically linear since you make bigger jumps at first and micro-load at the end, but you get the idea.
Everyone: “It”s cheating because it breaks the rules” is a cop-out from this discussion. In that respect, and NFL player that takes his helmet off on the field or pulls his socks down is a cheater because that is against the rules.
We”re talking ethics here, not rules. The two are not always synonymous.
When it comes to steroids I can understand both sides of the argument for pro athletes. It is absolutely cheating and it is in no way comparable to an on the field penalty like having pulled down socks. That””s just silly. That being said, there are a huge number of pro athletes who use and if you want to make that your career, make lots of money and support a family, that may be a bridge you have to cross.
As for myself, I just don””t see the risk being worth the reward. At this point in my life I””m no longer a competitive athlete, I lift because I find it enjoyable. I will have just as much fun working hard and setting slightly lower PRs than I would on the gear without having to spend a ton of money and worry about hormones getting out of whack or having more pimples than a 17 year old fry cook at burger king. The only reason I could fathom using them is if I had another serious injury that reduced my quality of life and by getting stronger through gear I could get that back.
Or if you were rehabbing form surgery and supplementing the relevant hormones would help you heal more quickly and ensure the surgical repair does not get destroyed.
–Justin
Gant
“We”re talking ethics here, not rules.”
I think there”s an implication when people say “steroids is breaking the rules.” The implication is that there”s nothing inherently unethical about taking steroids. With this line of reasoning, the gentlemen in the World”s Strongest Man are doing nothing wrong since they are not breaking the rules of the game, whereas Mark McQuire is frowned upon because he broke the rules.
Thanks for the answer NolanPower. I could argue more about semantics but I will refrain.
As far as steroids go if the rules prohibit them due to the perception that they give an unfair competitive advantage then you must abide by those rules or else face the consequences. Such as suspensions. There are different levels of rules in the NFL so to put them on the same category is not correct in my opinon. Having your socks down is a uniform violation and not an on the field penalty, only a fine. Facemask and leg whips are safety concerns and on the field penalties occur. Steroids are off the field issues that will result in much stiffer penalties. That is my pro athlete rant.
As for amateurs do what you like. However, I do not want guys that take them, to get clean right before a powerlifting or weightlifting event and then say that they train clean. That is bunk.
Finally, I have posted this link before but since Gant said that we could make fun of functional fitness I thought I would post it again, I laugh everytime I watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/jsenicola#p/a/u/0/rgH_ZoMOht8
Post your thoughts on the video
BW = 206
Back Squat 340 x 5 x 3 sets
Bench Press 270 x 5 x 3 sets
Deadlift 370 x 5 x 1 set
Press 155 x 5 x 3 sets
Power Clean 165 x 3 x 5 sets
PR: read more of Lyle McDonald”s stuff than ever before. BF (and water weight) is steadily dropping after a pretty stout 70sbig eating performance at a SuperBowl party. Which reminds me that I have some pics of some food to submit.
Roids: Having never had the privilege of being in a situation where deciding yes/no on the topic is important in regards to continuing my livelihood (read: pro athletics), I can”t say for certain how I would decide. But outside of that, I can”t see a reason to take them for a casual lifter unless (properly) doctor prescribed. Are we that vain?
I also agree with everyone here that roids are not given a fair shake by the media, but that”s nothing new. I also think they can be used “properly” to a degree. But I also consider it cheating.
However, the famous Richard Petty quote of “If you ain”t cheatin, you ain”t racin!” seems to apply to almost all professional sports these days.
Bodyweight – 83.5kg (heaviest ever)
Back Squat 135kg,140kg,145kg x1 PR all 3 lifts.
missed a 115kg bench press =(
Jacob, gold star for the Petty quote.
I personally am all for pro athletes being on gear. Who are we to judge them when we have never been in their situation. Besides, better athletes put on a better show for us. Remember how fun it was to watch Romo destroy people?! They also might be taking stuff like deca to help out their joints. There are alot of reasons those guys do it.
Snatch 200 lbs for a PR was how my Tuesday evening went.
SWAT – “cheating is relative” doesn”t mean it might not be cheating. It means everyone is cheating, so the ethical quality of your cheating depends on how much everyone else cheats. You”re just cheating more than or less than the other pro athletes – hence relative.
If taking roids was the difference between millions on a new contract or retirement, I would be a fool not to take the hormones.
But as an average joe, like Jacob, I really see no need outside of vanity to take them.
There is still something when an amazing feet is accomplished by a natural athlete that records broken by artificial hormones can””t duplicate.
To each his own. Fuck Barry Bonds.
And lemme tell ya folks, La Habra is as average as they get.
–Justin
PW Friday for me (Piss-Weak)
BW 95kg
BS 102.5kg (PR but missed one rep: 5,4,5)
SP 55kg (wouldv”e been PR if I got all reps: 5,5,4)
PC 70kg 5×3 (PR)
Been eating tonnes this week but had the shits yesterday so maybe wasted a lot of cals?
Possible PR lunch today: 9oz chicken breast plus 1/2 pound bacon ribs plus massive salad (sorry) plus avocado, and 2 pints (UK) whole milk.
Good Discussion on Steroids by Dave Tate at the Crossfit Journal.
http://journal.crossfit.com/2009/07/human-potential-steroids-and-crossfit.tpl
Snip: Dave said that high level athletes are locked into a vision and driven by passion. They don’t care what critics think and are always looking for a performance edge. Drugs are part of most sports. Those who get caught are labelled bad people, but the reality is that many of their rivals are also using drugs but just don’t get caught.
Dave said he is neither pro nor con on the use of anabolic steroids. Steroids can move your performance up a notch, but can’t improve your performance by two levels. Steroids are an ace card that can be used only once. It’s one thing for an NFL player to flip the card several years into his career, so he can play five more years and earn another $10-15 million. But it’s deplorable that high school kids who just want big biceps are buying up “the good stuff” and making it harder to find for athletes who really need it.
This week”s PRs:
BW: 218lbs
Back squat: 301x5x3
Deadlift: 400×5
Power clean: 195x3x5
Bench press: 259x5x3
Uniforms: all pants are completely unserviceable/borderline obscene; requiring a few visits to the tailor shop as well as some new purchases
Here””s my two cents on steroids…
At one time being a professional athlete meant being genetically/naturally gifted and/or working harder than the other guy to go pro. It also meant going pro for just for the love of whatever your chosen sport was. There were no shortcuts, no artificial enhancers, and very little money to be made. Most less than 100 years ago most professionl athletes had jobs during their off-season to support themselves, their training, and their family. Few people complained about…they loved it enough to do it.
At some point, for some ridiculous reason, money became the slow destruction of professional sports. Sometimes I wonder how many professional athletes would choose to be professional athletes if they were still only making in the thousands for a season?
So, to the steroid position…professional athletics has now become a corrupt business where steroids are necessary for many to be successful. It is each person””s choice to use steroids. I personally don””t think there should be any sort of ban on steroids because so many athletes, in probably 99.99% of all professional sports, are using steroids to some degree. The real shame is the athlete who would play his/her sport steroid free, for little money, just because they love the game, but is pressured to take steroids so that he/she can stay competitive with all the money grubbers jacked up steroids to gain an edge.
Steroids suck, but they””ve become a reality in the sporting world. At this point just let every person make their own decision and let them live with whatever consequences may come their way.
“Steroids suck” is a relative term. Do they suck if they help keep you from being injured or help you heal your injury so that you can keep making lots of money for your family?
–Justin
God lord, I gained 6 pounds during this week!
Justin, yes, for me, as spectator of professional sports, steroids still suck under those conditions, based on my desire for “clean” athletes. However, as I said, I understand that it is so prevalent throughout sports today that it should not be regulated. Let every person make his/her choice.
265lbs box squats. 3×5. TOO EASY
press. 115lbs. 5-5-4.
pullups 8-8-10
no deadlifts or power cleans till my lower back heals.
i have a question, i don””t have a problem with steroids at all, but don””t you think that one should do a 5×5 type program or westside before using steroids? great gains can stil be made on these programs
Who are you asking? I thought Gant kinda made that point in the article. I would extend Gant’s thought and say I don’t think anybody require steroids until they are well into an intermediate program. In other words, it would be stupid to use them as a novice since gains can be made so quickly.
–Justin
BS 3x5x345
DL 1x5x425
SP 3x5x147
BP 3x5x235
P.Snatch 5x3x180
Also, not really a pr but a first for me, just went and got my ass kicked by a massage therapist today. Will definitely be doin that regularly.
PRs:
Squat: 292lbs
Bench: 176lbs
Deadlift: 308lbs
OHP: 105lbs
All for sets.
Been doing SS little over a month:
all 3×5
Squat 245 to 305
Press 95 to 130
DL 255 to 315
Bench 205 to 210…yeah I can”t figure that one out
Squat 240x3x5 PR
DL 295x1x5 PR
I reread the section on hand placement in SS, but today my elbow hurt more than ever. I think I need to reset and spend a little each day working on shoulder and back strength.
PR”s this week.
Squat w/new elitefts powerbelt:
265×8