Atlanta Workshop – March 5th
The first 70’s Big Workshop of 2011 is scheduled for March 5th in Alphaertta, GA just north of Atlanta. This will mark version 3.0 of the workshop, and I’m busily working on improving the lectures, presentation, and material. The workshop consists of various lectures on strength training, yet will focus on programming for both strength and conditioning. We’ll have a laid back training session followed by a hearty dinner at a local restaurant (I’ll be drinking beer, too). If you are interested, then e-mail me at Justin@70sBig.com for sign up information. More details will be provided via the site and the Facebook Fan Page.
Workshop in Amarillo, April 2010
Debate
There was a debate raging yesterday on Facebook on whether pull-ups or chin-ups were superior. My stance has been that they are both equally important for shoulder strength and health because of the difference in the angle of the humerus. The chin-up (done with a supinated forearm) has the humerus pointed forward while the pull-up (done with pronated forearm) has the angle of the humerus anywhere from 45 degrees in front of the direction the torso is facing to perpendicular to the direction the torso is facing. The subtle difference will stress the various shoulder extensors differently, and thus both are equally important to maintaining and strengthening a healthy shoulder.
The debate raged with arguments of which had more musculature involved and which had more biceps involved. One party even repeatedly claimed chin-ups were “gay”. This study was even cited as research proof that biceps involvement isn’t all that different between a pull-up or chin-up (we’ll find why this study is very fucking irrelevant below). For your entertainment, I have provided my comments on the issue. I’ve left out the debate and mentioning the other participants on purpose so that they don’t have to deal with all of you stalking them like I do.
Comment 1:
1. Chin-ups aren’t gay.
2. Someone needs to make a compelling argument with a stellar mechanical analysis to point out that the lats are NOT extending the shoulders as well during the chin-up.
3. Neither chin-ups nor pull-ups are better th…an the other. They just are.
4. Both movements train the shoulder musculature differently because of the angle of the humerus when doing the movements.
5. Thus, they are both important
Comment 2:
Regarding that study, I have to pick it apart like I did in the writing assignment of my GRE:
1. Machines were used in the study, which has an irrelevant representation of a body weight controlled movement.
2. Machines also make the study ga…y.
3. The average weight of the MALES was 78.25kg (~172 lbs.). The average height was about 6′ tall. These “males” are pussies, and that makes the study gay.
4. Each “maximal voluntary contraction” test done with electrodes on the skin were three seconds of isometric contraction against an immovable object. Not only is this fucking irrelevant to real world training, but isometrics are gay.
5. They then used two reps of ten second isometric contraction at the completion of the movement for each exercise (exercises were wide grip pull down, reverse grip pull down, and two variations of the seated row). Again, the machines are irrelevant, but so are these measures. Gay.
6. Most importantly, there were only 12 subjects in this study. That can hardly be generalized to any population other than weak, pussy males, much less to everyone. Furthermore, the exercises that were used in the study are irrelevant to significant and effective training, so the point is moot anyway.
7. The majority of the people working on this study were from the undergraduate program, so the study and results aren’t that compelling anyway.
Comment 3:
I’m not mocking [the dude who posted the study] for citing the source, I’m mocking the fucking ineptitude in the Exercise Science community in studying irrelevant bullshit topics. Why even ask this as a research question? If you know anatomy, and do a mechanical analysis of how structures effect a movement — given the change in those structures relative to the joints and relative positioning to one another — then you can come to a pretty compelling conclusion without all this rhetorical bullshit. Furthermore, this line of study is so weak, nobody is gonna give a fuck to repeat the study, much less with varying populations. Even if we HAD seen a change in biceps involvement, or any other muscle involvement, we already know what does or doesn’t make a strong shoulder girdle. And even if we didn’t, it’s logical to work it from many different angles to ensure that the structures are as strong as they can be so that they can withstand the forces of other movements, whether they be lifting or otherwise.
But I guess you all are really focused on this topic because you don’t have fantastic biceps like me.
PR Friday
Post your training PR’s or updates to the comments. I am probably going to the beach this weekend, so you northerners can imagine me in a speedo as you tread through snow.
Chins are the clear winner because that’s what I do.
Not PRs, but getting closer tonight
Squat 320 x 3
Bench 220 x 3
lbs.
Thank you to the folks who donated money to the 70’s Big cause in yesterday’s post. The generosity of this community continues to blow me away. We’ve really built a respectable community together.
Thanks for reading, and I’ll continue to do my part.
No PRs, shit week overall.
Unless tearing calluses (2) counts as a PR – never happened to me before.
Bench 275 x 7
Squat 365 x 5
OH Press 180 x 8
Deadlift 355 x 7
I was intrigued by some of the comments that pullups were easier for some than chins. I always thought chins were easier for everyone, I guess not.
I should also note that Charles Poliquin fucking loves chins. They are his “#1 upper back mass building exercise” as well as 4 of his 7 “top upper back exercises”.
PR’s this week: Front Squat 275×2 which is sort of a PR cause it was without belt and 1rm with belt was 300 2 months ago. Hopefully setting some PR’s tomorrow in the classic (oly) lifts, and then a meet one week from sunday.
Front Squatted 135kg for 6×3, experienced elbow pain again, and found my push press 1RM (70kg). Gonna start 5/3/1 next week.
Will there be 70s Big Workshops in Europe too?
Right now the possibility is limited be a) what I’ll be doing in life several months from now and b) disposable income. I will update the Euro folks when I can.
–Justin
Poliquin on chins
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/567/Chin-ups_The_King_of_Upper_Body_Exercises.aspx
Justin, does buying you a beer during the next time we hang out count as a donation?
Rob,
It’ll help.
Oh, and this 3.0 workshop will be the next step beyond what we did before.
–Justin
more PRs from running the texas method
squat 5RM: 360
deadlift 5RM: 430
bench 3RM: 275
Squat 5rm 370
Bench 3rm 235
Skinny Guy (167lbs bodyweight) PRs.
snatch: 160lbs x1
overhead squat: 200lbs x1
PR: Squat 325#x5 – good depth
(I tried 330#x5 this morning, but my video replay showed several reps a tad high -insert frowny emoticon here)
My PL Meet #2 coming up 26 Mar.
M / 50 / 6’1″ / 212#
Weight PR
Sat – Deadlift, 230 X 2 X 1
Personal PR
I was benching 125 for 5 sets of 5 and the guy next to me (with 95 on the bar) told me I was ‘making him look bad.’
Today’s workout was kind of a wash, I only got 225 for one set of one rep. I definitely can tell when I haven’t been eating right!
PR: I think my 70s Big shirts got stolen.
The front door to the apartment complex hasn’t been closing well since the storm and USPS said two packages were being delivered that day, but neither my 70s Big shirts nor my other package were there. Bastards!
“…The average weight of the MALES was 78.25kg (~172 lbs.). The average height was about 6′ tall. These “males” are pussies, and that makes the study gay.” Thats FUNNY!!!!!! Post of week, I just called it!
PR for me – cleans @ 165# x 3. Its not that heavy sure, but I am very new to these movements (and, PR is PR no…?)
Lets all get behind the site now! If everyone who has been helped by 70s Big bought a T-shirt and repped for the site hard – that would be great! I am eagerly awaiting mine, and deciding on which one to buy next!
THankns forthe great resource Justin and your team!
I think this site is fantastic. I haven’t posted on PR friday before so I have a couple of them.
1) My 70s big quest has added 30 lbs to my 6’2 frame, 185 to 215 and I am in pursuit of 240. Although I may have lost a lot of yesterday due to a nasty stomach virus.
2) I recently went up to York Barbell for a weightlifting clinic 3 weekends ago where I snatched 60 kg for a double so I decided to gear my trainings to oly lifting.
Thanks Justin,
Kevin
Great topic of debate, I was just thinking on my walk home from the gym about whether I should do some chinups in my program to help my overall strength/health. I will probably e-mail ExtremistPullup and ask about their value in his training. (He’s done a +200lb Pullup at 202lb bodyweight) http://www.extremepullups.com/
Thunderthighs is not going to be pleased with the extensive use of gay in the post unfortunately.
My argument for excluding chins is I’ve always been able to do a max weighted chin with the same weight as I can add to the pull-up and if pullups are making the chinup stronger at the same rate, why do them?
Someone tell me I’m wrong.
PRs:
Bench: 275x3x3 (first reps paused)
Deadlift: 425×2 (hook grip)
Clean & Press: 190x1x10
DB row: 125×10 (hook grip)
Pull-up: +130×3 (this means my biceps are bigger than justin’s)
I didn’t think I had to say this, but my superfluous use of the word “gay” was clearly satirizing the fact that chin-ups were called gay. I feel the need to point this out because some people are sensitive to such things.
Oh, and your reasoning for not doing chin-ups was already addressed in my post. I’ll summarize it again: chin-ups train the musculature in a subtly different way than pull-ups because the angle of the humerus is different. Thus, doing them chronically is more important than not important.
–Justin
Re Comment three: hey, poor grad students just trying to get a masters degree and get the fuck out of academia aren’t really interested in relevance, they just want to get it done and get out. And they probably have a limited number of guinea pigs i.e. their classmates, most of which in academia are going to be wussy guys. The structure of academia leads to a lot of irrelevant bullshit studies.
Squat – 320x5x2 – failed on the third set on the 4th squat. Time to change things up I think. I could’ve probably gotten the third set if I rested more in between, but taking Justin’s advice about just surviving my squat workout, I think I’ll make the switch to Texas Method. I also popped a bunch of blood vessels in my face during that third set which was a PR, never done that before, thought it was sweet.
I got reading strength villain this past week or so and checked out their challenges. One is bodyweight squat x 50. I wanted to see what I could do, so I hit 205×20, followed by a set of 10. That’s my first significant weight for that many reps, it hurt so good.
Tied my press PR, breaking it this weekend.
Bench – 210x5x3 My bench is cruising right along.
Oh and if chins are gay, call me homo. But really I train both after reading Starting Strength. I wanted to chime in on that debate, but Jake Brisket held it down.
I PR’d bench on TM friday 3×165 (weak sauce I know). I did a 170 single bench from the bottom position. (Brooks Kubik would be proud) on my recovery day yesterday. Otherwise, I inch closer to PR’s on texas method now that I’ve found a rhythm.
Does buying T shirts count as much in terms of charity? I was waiting until 200# but I might have to go early, and get one for my friend.
Also, Justin have you found anyone to buy your bar and plates? If not, I am curious as to why your selling it and do have any idea what it would cost to ship up to Baltimore?
I haven’t sold it. I’m selling it because I don’t use the stuff, won’t be able to in the near future, and am short on money. I don’t think the shipping should be outrageous, but I’d have to check and see what the best companies are for heavier stuff (pallet shipping). The shipping cost would go to the buyer, as is the case if you buy them anywhere else. E-mail me if you want to talk about it. Justin@70sbig.com
–Justin
Are isometrics per se “gay”? Bill Starr obviously thinks they have their place in advanced training:
http://startingstrength.com/articles/ultimate_exercise_2_starr.pdf
PR:
Clean 105kg
Starr and other lifters from his time were also on steroids. People who were educated directly by Starr have said he was wrong about things. He is obviously knowledgeable, but when isometrics were used back in the day, most of the guys were “using”. I’ll keep recommending that people use concentric/eccentric muscle action through a full range of motion with compound movements — like Starr talked about in his effective book “The Strongest Shall Survive”. I’ll also note that Starr didn’t write a book on isometrics for football training.
Don’t be a fool or a troll.
–Justin
squat 3x5x185
dl 1x5x175
bench 3x5x155
Lost my training log after keeping incredibly detailed notes about what I was doing to recover from some nagging injuries. So annoyance PR.
squat 110kg x 3
Fsquat 80kg x 2
Hitting the week of 1s for this 5/3/1 cycle next week, hopefully some good PRs then.
Bench: 190×6 PR
Press: 135×4 PR
It’s good to be moving heavy weight again. Probably had another rep on both but I’m keeping it smart this cycle. Looking forward to hitting some new PRs tomorrow and monday!
170×4 press, 385×4 DL, 85kg power clean (weak sauce PR)
Rack pull: 420 1×5
Weighted chins: 20# 5×3
Just got Dan John’s new book, mass made simple, going to try this 6 week plan and will update accordingly. The book is a good read just like all of his other works.
Justin, you plan on coming back to northern California for a workshop?
I hadn’t planned on it, but it depends on what I’ll be doing in a few months.
–Justin
I imagine you in a speedo all the time. Often while doing chin-ups.
I’m not always doing chin-ups, but I’m always wearing a speedo. Ergo, I’m in a speedo while doing chin-ups.
–Justin
Still on Greyskull LP…
Squat Rep PR: 215#x12
And can do 2 chins now (thats right, chins, what of it). Which, seein as 3 weeks ago I could do none at all, is pretty damn sweet.
if isometrics are gay, i’m fucking flaming as a dog that fits in your purse
Pull ups are superior to chins. If you are going to climb something like a wall, you aren’t going to grab it in the supinated position. You are going to pull yourself like a pull up. Q.E.D.
I read this while at work earlier and when I got to your bicep comment, I audibly went, “WHOOOOA.” I sounded like Joey Fucking Lawrence.
For the record, Justin is to biceps what I am to calves.
For those of you who aren’t Justin, I’ve got bigger calves than you… and I’m not happy about it.
For those of you who don’t know but care – Joey Fucking Lawrence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erQhIA0zD7I&feature=related
@Yosh – SO much more functional!
Maybe some lat pull-downs using bands hanging from a pull-up bar are in order. haha, Feb. 8th post here if you missed it: http://alongthelinesof.com/
But seriously, the functionality argument is kinda lame. I mean really, how do you pick up grocery bags, or a couch, or a child or a big rock. We’re (well at least I’m) not training to be able to climb shit better, or to reflect life activities, being better at those things is just a function of training. we train to get stronger, that’s what’s important. Neither is “superior” because they both strengthen you in different ways, especially the shoulder girdle in different ways. Do them both to get your strongest. But if you are consistently climbing walls to escape zombies or something, by all means don’t even think of chin-ups, but maybe invest in a home rock wall gym.
“it’s logical to work it from many different angles to ensure that the structures are as strong as they can be”
So Justin, what you’re saying is that I need to work my biceps from many different angles to help them “pop”? That’s really good advice, man, I’ll pass it on to all my bros.
Seriously though: squat 420×3, bench 260×3, dips +85×5
That is what I’m saying, Jake.
Talking to everyone else now:
Oh, and I didn’t intend for you guys to debate the issue. I’ve settled the debate by pointing out the humerus is at a different angle relative to the torso during chins/pull-ups.
–Justin
SS
PR Squat 320x3x5
pr press 150x3x5
clean 160x5x3… pr next time.
According to the post, at 5’10 and 170lbs, I’m bordering on gay…but thankfully i’m working on it.
Dead 415×3
Squat 355×2
Bench 270×2
Clean 110kgx2 (only lift in kilos)
Really have to work on balance for squats and cleans.
Press: 190×1.
Front squat: 130 kg x 5 (286 pounds).
PRs from SS in Kg
Squat 102.5x3x5
Deadlift 102.5x1x5
Bench 82.5x3x5
press 47.5x3x5
@keysburg… The structure of academia also leads to ground breaking medicine that saves millions of lives a year but hey lets just bad mouth it shall we.
More six nations Rugby this weekend = Awesome
Also @coolhandluke your around my body weight and my god do you shift some weight. those numbers are awesome. If your border line gay then I am the solidest fag on here with my girly numbers.
@bedhead03 – I didn’t say academia didn’t accomplish anything at all, just that it produced some nonsense along the way. Sensitive much?
The “no homo” comment I believe to be in jest, not that anyone is afraid of “catching” anything.
And the repeated use of the slur “gay” in this post I’m pretty sure was to hammer on the guys in the debate on facebook that kept claiming chin-ups to be “gay”.
Do you remember this post?: http://www.70sbig.com/blog/2010/07/this-post-is-not-homo/#comments
Keep a sense of humor now
Thank you Matt. Jesus, I weep that satire is dead nowadays. Jonathan Swift had huge fucking testicles and now nobody can distinguish between hairy coconuts and testicles. It’s a damn shame.
–Justin
Not doing chins or pullups is gay. I don’t see the point of arguing over which is superior.
People that get all butt-hurt over calling stuff gay need to quit being so fucking sensitive. You are the reason there is so much politically correct bullshit out there. You must lead very boring lives if you worry about little shit like that.
First off, to answer your questions, I pick up a couch or a big rock using a deadlift-style technique. Children get a power curl, and grocery bags just get a normal curl or I tell my girlfriend to get me food.
I don’t like the functional Nazis that play with Bosu balls either. I even avoided using the term “functional” in my original post to differentiate myself. I’m not one of “those” people. Those Vibram 5 Finger people that do goofy shit in the gym kind of piss me off.
I agree with you that you can get stronger from both pull ups and chins. But if I had to choose one exercise over the other, I would go for pull ups. In my opinion and from my life, pull ups are a lot more useful. I had a military PT test that included pull ups, but not chin ups. I’ve trained for obstacle course-type events that I feel that pull ups were also far more suitable. Just remember this when zombies are chowing down on your perfectly balanced shoulder girdle, and I am wall/fence climbing survivor. Any strength gained from doing pull ups easily transitioned to me being able to pick up a bag of groceries. I never felt the need to specifically train biceps in a supinated fashion until recently. I’ve started to add in curls every once in a while since I have a 500+lbs deadlift and feel like that could help get me stronger.
I just want to point out how most of the Vibram exercisers are in the Air Force. Have you noticed this too, Yosh?
This discussion bores me, but I do want to point out that strength = functionality. Also, strength = doing things with a different form well. Determining whether or not pull-ups or chin-ups are better is largely irrelevant to anyone who doesn’t sit on their ass for five years straight.
–Justin
5/3/1
DL 460×2
repeats from yest post
Press 220×3
Bench 295×3
Dips +100×6
I do chins on press day and pullups on bench day or vice versa
Having never done chins and pullups in my previous weight training life (b/c of piss poor guidance and stupidity) just doing either of them consistently is paying some good dividends in the press and bench dept.
calling stuff gay is not a sport
Press: 150x5x3
Deadlift: 365x1x5
Bench: 230x5x3
Squat: 315x2x5 then one last set of 4reps followed by one rep of dumping the weight the pins after a shooting pain in my lower back followed by 2 minutes rest in the supine postion underneath the squat rack repeating “What did I just fucking do?” to myself.
I feel ok, I did 250x4x5 two days after really easily with no pain. Not sure what course of action to follow here. My back gave me a warning this time, don’t want to push that. Any suggestions from the panel? Perhaps maintain and stop adding weight on the LP for a bit?
Methinks you have a form issue that chops away at the tree. This topic will be Monday’s post.
–Justin
I try not to use “gay” in these references, either, just like I avoid using racial slurs in any situation. Is that weak? I don’t give a shit. This is the 90’s. Grow up, people. Do more chins. They’re awesome, even if I suck at them.
PR: Down to 231 on Paleo. A slow week (-2lbs). Haven’t been lifting for shit lately, and looked up TX USAPL records for inspiration…600 squat in the 220 class. I got a long way to go.
Looking forward to tomorrow – climbing around Enchanted Rock and eating at Cooper’s BBQ in Llano.
Was that 600 squat raw? There’s a dude who competes raw in the 220 class in Texas. He was at TX State and Raw Nats. He’s fucking jacked at like 5’7″. Can’t remember his name. Benches over 400.
–Justin
@keysburg Yes Much.
why just curls then and not chins? same effect with more muscle mass right?
and using that logic wouldn’t any strength gained from chins transfer to climbing walls?
and we don’t have to choose just one exercise over the other, therefore the whole discussion is moot.
You’re being rhetorical, but I want to point out to the “penis gallery” that curls don’t have shoulder extension, yet chins/pull-ups do. They have both elbow flexion and shoulder extension, and that’s why they are super duper.
–Justin
Justin, when are you going to bring the road show up to the Northeast??
This is actually one part of the country that I should try and get to before going into whatever job I get soon.
Any suggestions? Want to host?
–Justin