[poll id=”36″]
The poll above will give some insight as to what style of training 70’s Big readers are distributed into. Weightlifters will be particularly interested in today’s topic while non-weightlifters will think it’s irrelevant, moot, or not understand it. I hope that the short analysis and discussion will spark some conversation related to mechanics as well as help the non-weightlifting crowd understand why the discussion exists.
Background
In a snatch or a clean, the barbell is pulled from the floor and moved upward because of the symphony of explosion from the knees and hips. The movements are more sensitive to technical changes that affect the mechanics, more so than strength lifts like the deadlift or press. This doesn’t mean weightlifting is on a pedestal with respect to powerlifting, it just means it’s very different. As with most sports, technique has evolved over time to improve efficiency, and this is evidenced by the progressive increase of world records over time (link shows WR total in “heavyweight” category 1972 to present).
The United States is so large and weightlifting is such a relatively small sport here that there is not a solidified way to teach mechanics. One would assume that the governing body, USA Weightlifting, would dictate the style of teaching, coaching, programming, and mechanics, but in practice this isn’t the case. Other countries that are successful in weightlifting will have a given system that they utilize, and discrepancies are either invalidated with research or results. Some systems of coaching or programming that come to mind are Bulgarian, Russian, and Chinese.
CONTINUE READING
It’s well known that the U.S. does not perform well at the international level in weightlifting, and it’s fair to look at and discuss mechanics to gauge how they effect our success. If anything, it can help clarify what foreign resources say (i.e. Russian translations) to improve our understanding and efficacy.
Right now there has been discussion that pits two pulling methods against each other: the “jump and shrug” and the “catapult”. Succinctly, “jump and shrug” focuses on jumping or pulling the bar as high as possible while “catapult” (a misleading name, in my opinion) focuses on extension and a vigorous drop into the receiving position.
“Jump and Shrug”
This method is not a terrible point of emphasis, especially with beginners, yet it’s focus will limit intermediate to advanced level lifters — especially when the barbell weight significantly exceeds body weight. Jacob Tsypkin alluded to the fact that in the early weightlifting days, the bar wasn’t allowed to touch any part of the lifter’s body. As a result, the bar would need to be jumped as high as possible without contacting the body, and this is essentially the “jump and shrug” method. It would make sense if this lifting style developed from those rules constraints.
This method obviously puts an emphasis on jumping the bar as high as possible with the optional method of cuing a shrug at the top to help the upward momentum of the bar. I think that this “jump” (and not shrugging) mentality is very useful for teaching two populations: beginners and non-weightlifting athletes.
A trainee who has never lifted before will need to learn that snatching or cleaning is accomplished because the hips and legs make it so. Focusing on jumping the bar can help develop power ability, and one argument is that it could be a precursor to shifting into more advanced methods of weightlifting. If a trainee was going to have an emphasis on “jumping the bar” as high as possible, I think that they should only have this emphasis for one to six months. The first month could even be devoted to the power versions of the lifts. This methodology is viewed by advanced weightlifting coaches as counter productive since getting under the bar is difficult to teach to someone with a habit of trying to jump as high as possible (reference Travis Cooper’s experience in this thread). My question to the rabbling quorum is: do you think that a period of time no longer than six months of a “jumping” emphasis is helpful or harmful to long term weightlifting skill?
As for non-weightlifting athletes, their purpose of using variations of the Olympic lifts in their training is to have a loaded, explosive hip extension. I see a benefit in having an emphasis of jumping the bar in a power clean or power snatch for, say, a football player or soldier. The “extend and drop” emphasis (explained below) would detract from their goal in using the movement as it has a focus on only pulling as much as you need to in order to fully drop under the bar. In contrast, the “jump” method would put the emphasis on pulling the bar as high as possible, which would be what I want in trying to develop the hip extension capability of a non-weightlifter. Rabbling quorum: do you agree or disagree with this sentiment?
“Catapult” or “Extend and Drop”
I admittedly have not ever talked with Don McCauley or seen his video explanations, so my analysis and viewpoints are limited in this discussion. I have talked with Pendlay about various mechanical topics as well as athletes and coaches who have learned from Pendlay and can typically learn and implement coaching/mechanics/programming topics pretty quickly, but bare with me if I explain something incorrectly. Remember that I’m trying to reach out to summarize for weightlifters and non-weightlifters.
I don’t like the term “catapult” as it implies that the contact of the bar with hips applies upward force on the bar. I think it’s because I saw someone using the term “boost” on GoHeavy.com — it bothered me a lot. In any case, I think it would be descriptive to readers to think of this as the “extend and drop”. This method requires much more attention to detail because it’s usually associated with a lifter handling large weights — significantly higher than their body weight. Mechanics will differ and change when the implement in a lifter’s hands weighs twice as much as they do. When squatting at least double body weight, if the bar moves forward or back one inch, the mechanical disadvantage is exponentially greater than if that error occurred with a much lighter weight. Now imagine that same sensitivity to mechanics but in a dynamic movement like the snatch or clean. Things get…difficult.
The basic premise of “extend and drop” would be to have an appropriate amount of “pull” — one that isn’t too little or too much — so that it times up perfectly with the vigorous and violent dropping of the athlete to get under the bar. A Pendlay forum user posted a link to this beautiful lift of Blagoy Blagoev snatching 195kg at 90kg, an incredible feat.
You can observe Oleg Perepetchenov in this post on the Pendlay forum exhibiting near perfect technique by getting to an extended hip position and not wasting any time before dropping (pictures below).
This is the epitome of efficiency, and this is what “extend and drop” teaches. I brainstormed some notes to help some of you see the specifics in how this method differentiates than the “jump” method or what you’ve been taught before.
Tspykin thought this clarifying bit of information would help understanding for the subsequent analysis:
In the execution of the “catapult,” or “extend and drop” method, there are three positions we are concerned with:
Position 1: Bar at high hang, sitting in the crease of the hip, with the shoulders back, hips over heels, knees slightly bent, and weight in heels. When moving into this position from the top, only the knees should break – if the bar slides down the thigh instead of staying in the crease of the hip, the lifter is flexing at the hip too much.
Position 2: Bar just below knee. At this position, the shoulders should be further ahead of the bar than at any other point in the lift. Three cues to check: heels (is the weight in the lifters heels,) knees (are the knees back and hamstrings stretched,) chest (is the chest over the bar and the back extended hard.
Position 3: The start position – not necessarily the lifters “set-up,” but specifically the position the lifter is in at the moment the bar is separated from the floor. The weight will be slightly towards the forefoot, the hips will be low, knees well ahead of the bar, and shoulders slightly ahead of the bar (though some of the best lifters actually start with the shoulders behind the bar, and their ability to pull like this may contribute to their superiority.)
Throughout the first phase of the pull off the ground, the balance of weight will be closer to the forefoot, but as the bar approaches the knees there is an emphasis in putting the weight in the heels. This not only effectively distributes the force application through musculature of the legs and hips, but it also is a preventative measure to prevent the weight from shifting forward (particularly when the barbell weighs significantly more than the lifter). Right before the second pull, or the violent hip extension, the weight will remain in the heels and the shoulders will be out over the bar; this effectively stretches the hamstrings. This position may have even been achieved as a result of the torso bowing forward (due to a more vertical starting position). This bowing would provide a subtle stretching of the hamstrings that would amplify their subsequent contraction that is about to occur (e.g. “stretch reflex”). Once the hip extension begins, the knees will rebend, which stretches the quadriceps and facilitates their immediate contraction to extend the knee that aids the “second pull” or explosive upward movement.
Again, the emphasis of keeping the weight in the heels and to “finish in the heels” will ensure that the correct muscular distribution is utilized for the force application (meaning that the stuff in the previous paragraph is happening in symphony instead of moving into a bad position). The “heels” emphasis will also avoid the lifter from “floating” or spending a superfluous amount of time at the apex of their pull (i.e. it prevents the lifter from getting airborne due to the violent extension). Over time the lifter will learn what amount of pull is required to not “over-pull” to avoid the “floating” problem. Lastly, the heels cue will facilitate a quick drop in to a squat position. “Heels” is a good cue for vertical-torso squatting styles; in this case the clean (front squat) and snatch (overhead squat) recovery. Since heels has been emphasized throughout the movement, there doesn’t have to be significant re-positioning of the feet as the lifter violently and quickly drops under the weight (with the assist of pulling themselves under the bar against the upward momentum).
The result is a beautifully efficient movement that we see above with Oleg and Blagoy. One thing that I left out (for simplicity) was the emphasis on “keeping the hands back” throughout the pull. Tsypkin pointed out that when Pendlay has his lifters pull off of blocks, they also initiate that movement with “push through the thighs” and “push bar back” (Pendlay can clarify the wording if need be). The emphasis on keeping the bar back is especially relevant when the weight is significantly greater than body weight because of mechanical efficiency. If ignorance or laziness allowed the bar to shift forward an inch during the movement, it would create or exacerbate any lever arms and make the rest of the lift (and positions throughout) more difficult.
Summary
The “jump” method is a rudimentary method of lifting that is easy to teach and is useful for power development in non-weightlifters. It’s quite clear that “extend and drop” is necessary for high level lifters lifting significant amounts of weight; the greater the weight, the greater the demand for supreme efficiency. The “jump” method is easy to teach to a beginner and can help develop their power, but is it debilitating to perfecting the “extend and drop” later? How would you “extend and drop” coaches develop the ‘hip extension power’ of an athlete who doesn’t inherently do it well from the start?
Note: Corrections will be made if needed.
lol at delving into this stupid debate
this oughta be good
http://i.imgur.com/SI3Bj.gif
I’m offended at the lack of an option for throwers. I hate being relegated to “Other.” How does it feel to lose my love? Please respond.
Used to be a pretty good alpine climber (so, endurance athlete?) but got the GPP bug through Mtn. Athlete, then Gym Jones, then a local Crossfit gym. Then I got totally obbssesed w/ weightlifting…
So, I answered weightlifter because currently, that is what I am focusing on improving, even though I suck at it…but I also digest everything y’all post on strength also because, well, @ this point I need to be just plain jane stronger to Oly heavier, plain and simple.
Is it bad that I actually had to sit and think about my answer? I’m probably strongest in the power lifts, enjoy weightlifting the most (and am working hard at getting my numbers up), but train at/compete with a CrossFit gym. I answered CF’er just because that’s the only thing I’ve competed in, even though I despise doing 20 minute conditioning “WODs”. That all changes next weekend when I do my first weightlifting meet.
I answered “other” because I’m training to be a cagefighter.
No strongman love?
Also, why no barbarian option?
Im just a lax doosher, but I selected the GPP option because I want to be good at everything…
Full disclosure, when I first came to 70sBig, I was a crossfitter. I haven’t followed CF for a while though I still coach it. In the past few years I have followed SS, 5/3/1 and CFFB. So I guess that puts me in GPP. Just finished a solid 3 months of SS, probably burned out a little more than necessary and planning on going back to CFFB because it fucking rules.
regarding “Jump Shrug v Catapult” I thought Pendlay and McCauley established it is more of a semantic/coaching cue thing than a difference in technique, no?
Surprised at the lack of a bodybuilder option.
In my experience both with myself and helping others, it would be best to teach the lifts “correctly” from the get-go than do teach “jump and shrug”.
teaching the “jump and shrug” method is not only inefficient, but uses less hip extension than lifting correctly (as the trainee is focusing their effort into getting the bar higher using any way possible, vs just using extension).
I also think the “jump and shrug” makes one slower, where the goal is instead to get progressively faster (you will notice the podium lifters are always the fastest).
The way it was explained to me (by a russian) is that you are “making the bar bend” and using the hip extension and “whip” of the bar to pull yourself under. “You should be able to feel the bar pulling you under” is how it was explained. It was also explained as “deadlift, pop, then front squat” (for the clean) meaning less thought, just do it (faster!). This probably makes no sense, but when it clicks for you, it all becomes apparent.
also, I think the whole “weight through the heels, finish through the heels” stuff is over-analyzed. Perepetchenov is not focusing on “through the heels” or anything like that; only staying in balance, extend, get under it. Staying balanced will keep your weight where it should be.
In case you needed a data point from an “other”, I enjoyed discussing notebooks more than this post.
Definitely a degree of semantics to this argument.
When I say ‘jump’, I think what I mean is that the COM of the lifter is continuing to rise after contact with the floor has ceased.
The error of efficiency with this of course is that it is delaying the pulling of the body under the bar and is an extremely easy thing to do for a novice lifter and in particular someone using a stick or piece of PVC because of how light it is. I often instruct my lifters when learning the quick lifts to play a little bit of mime artistry and act like the bar is much heavier than it really is. Its also the reason why I only teach the first and second pull with a stick and transfer to the bar as soon as possible.
I used to teach people the ‘jumpin-and-a-shruggin’ method’ but now I would say that I teach ‘a-sweepin-and-a-humpin’. (Someone on the Pendlay forum coined those terms a while back)
Andrew Charniga, Jr. writes about the shrug and its cons in some of his articles.
http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles.html
I believe its mentioned in “Key Muscles for Weightlifting” and “Essential Components of Weightlifting Technique.”
I’m still fairly new at this, but I’ve been lucky enough to spend some time at Cal Strength and talk with Glenn quite a bit. Some of this may be slightly inaccurate, some may be blatantly incorrect, but I think I have a fairly good grasp on it, so here’s my take:
Rabbling Quorum #1: Harmful. I’ve heard Glenn mention that most new weightlifters shouldn’t use the power variations until they’ve been doing the full lifts for approximately 6 months on average. The difference between the full lifts is not that pulling the bar higher is emphasized in the power variations. The difference is that the limiting factor, instead of being the lifters ability to exert force against the load, becomes the depth at which they receive. Thus, the load the lifter can use is naturally lighter, so the same “amount” of hip extension gets the bar higher, so that it can be received in the higher catching position. The problem is, it only actually happens like this with experienced lifters who already have good timing with regard to finishing the pull and immediately retreating under the bar. If a new lifter is taught to power snatch or power clean first, I fear that it will teach them to focus too much on getting the bar higher, since they won’t have the proper finish/retreat timing down yet.
Rabbling Quorum #2: Disagree. I think for this statement to be true, is dependent on there being a less vicious hip extension in the catapult method. The hip extension is not any less powerful, it just occurs with the bar and body in a more optimal position to exert force. So, if done correctly: same “amount” of hip extension, but with greater loads = greater training adaptation, more powerful athletes.
The jump & shrug method is problematic for a few pretty serious reasons. I’m pretty amateur at this, but here’s how I see it, from the bottom up:
1) lifters who are preparing to jump & shrug aren’t going to do as good a job of sweeping the bar/bringing the knees back as the bar separates from the floor. As Justin mentioned, part of the reason for the dominance of the jump & shrug method is that the bar did not used to be allowed to touch the body. The jump & shrug method is best suited to work around this, so it’s not as advantageous to bring the bar back towards you. This leads to…
2) It’s harder to get and keep the weight in the heels. As the bar separates from the floor, the lifters weight will be slightly towards the forefoot, but as soon as the bar is up, the lifter should be pushing the knees and bar back, and the weight should be shifted into the heels sometime before the bar is at the knee. If you don’t bring the bar back, this is significantly harder to do.
3) The lifter focused on jumping and shrugging will probably not stay over the bar long enough, i.e. they will start the second pull too early. Since the weight is often forward due to the lifter not having brought/kept the bar/knees back, he must supercompensate by bringing the chest up early, lest the bar pull him forward completely. This means the hamstrings never reach full stretch, and thus are not able to provide as effective a rebound for the quads during the double knee bend.
Finally, all of this leads to…
4) Overpulling. The lifter tends to spend too much time at the top of the pull. Because the bar did not come back off the floor, the weight was forward. Because the weight was forward, the lifter supercompensates by spending too much time at the top of the pull in an attempt to get the bar further back.
Watch this video of Lindsay Taylor at the American Open, and you’ll see a split second delay at the top of her pull. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSLs69kCdf8
Compare to Jon North: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpwMI7EH8Cg
As you can see, Jon’s descent under the bar is immediate – if you look carefully you’ll notice that his knees don’t quite reach full extension, and his heels barely leave the platform, just enough to move into his receiving position.
Regarding the ease of the two coaching methods: since switching to teaching the lifts using Pendlay’s progression, I have had a MUCH easier time getting people to snatch and clean properly, and we’ve seen a significant increase in competency in the snatch and clean with the “average” folks at our gym, as well as the firebreathers. I’ve done Coach Burgeners weightlifting certification and it’s pretty good, but this is by far the simplest and most effective method I’ve used for teaching the snatch and clean. California Strength’s website has free videos on the teaching progression, and I highly recommend that anyone coaching the lifts, or doing them on their own, watch the videos and try the progression:
Part 1) http://californiastrength.com/videos/viewvideo/41/snatch/snatch-video-how-to-part-one
Part 2) http://californiastrength.com/videos/viewvideo/42/snatch/snatch-video-how-to-part-two
Part 3) http://californiastrength.com/videos/viewvideo/43/snatch/snatch-video-how-to-part-three
Lastly, to those claiming it’s an issue of semantics, not mechanics: I absolutely disagree. See Travis Cooper’s excellent analysis, complete with pictures, in the thread Justin linked in the original post, for a thorough breakdown of the mechanical differences between a lifter who jumps and shrugs, and a lifter who “catapults.”
Rabbling Quorum 1: Disagree with Tsypkin in that if we’re talking about someone brand new to snatching and cleaning, it is easiest to explain it to them via the concept of “jumping” (like Justin, the shrug is never a part of this cue). When my fiancee first learned to power clean and power snatch, the “jump cue” was how she learned to activate her hips and not pull with the arms. Right after that we had the opportunity to train with Don McCauley. He retaught her the pull using his method and she has beautiful technique right now in terms of hitting correct positions. So I agree with Tsypkin in that “jumping” as a cue shouldn’t be emphasized for any length of time, but I think it has utility during the first day(s) of introducing the lifts to rank novices.
Should have been clearer. Yes, there is utility in using the “jump” cue in the initial – very initial – phases of teaching the snatch or clean. It just shouldn’t be emphasized past that initial learning stage.
-Tsypkin
Rabbling Quorum 2: 100% agree with Tsypkin. Greater loads can be used with proper pulling form and the hip extension is exceptionally violent in this style. Moreover, the rapid change of direction of the full lifts can’t help but be positive for an athlete’s agility and CNS, not to mention strengthening stretch reflexes.
I’ve used McCauley’s and Pendlay’s progressions with several rank novices to weightlifting with good result.
Off topic, but does anyone know what’s going on with the SS forums?
Bodybuilder. Id love to say I do this for the thrill of competition, the drive to prove myself to myself, the quest for self improvememnt. But really, Im just vain. Strength is a great side effect of all this. But truthfully, I just want to look better on the beach.
“My question to the rabbling quorum is: do you think that a period of time no longer than six months of a “jumping” emphasis is helpful or harmful to long term weightlifting skill?”
HARMFUL. Teach it as thrusting the hips forward and up and then drawing them back and down. See what happens to the feet naturally using this kind instruction; some will actively jump but will still have the nice full hip extension you’re looking for, some people’s feet will barely move.
Rabbling Quorum: Teach ‘extend and drop under’ asap, then allow the power variations to develop later. Regarding coaching people with poor or weak hip extension, Tsypkin already said it:
“since switching to teaching the lifts using Pendlay’s progression, I have had a MUCH easier time getting people to snatch and clean properly, and we’ve seen a significant increase in competency in the snatch and clean with the “average” folks at our gym”
I would much rather teach a quick efficient lift and let the athlete get stronger and faster than develop bad habits mucking around with “jump and shrug” or poorly executed power variations. We used to teach the jump and shrug style. It led to a lot of upright rowing and little lifting. After implementing Pendlay’s three step method we have had more success in developing basic competency in the lifts. I have been able to get complete beginners with mediocre mobility to pop a 35lb bar into a full depth snatch in minutes. Incidentally, the USAW method isn’t radically differen’t from Pendlay’s. Just a few more intermediate steps in there (Granted I did my USAW cert at Pendlay’s gym, so it was probably a little biased.)
For the ‘problem’ athletes, we continue to drill the positions –especially the transition from position 2 to position 1 – and remind them to “fuck the bar” (thanks Jim Schmitz) and audibly stomp their feet. If that still doesn’t work, I sometimes use kettlebell swings to illustrate the movement pattern – remember this is for people who have very poor understanding of using their hips. Keep in mind I am looking for safe ways to implent the lifts into CF/CFFB programming and not training dedicated lifters. Our lifters are either martial artists or crossfitters.
When I was first taught, I couldnt use my legs, and I was humping the bar, as soon as I was told to jump, I immediately felt the difference. After I grasped the concept, I stopped alluding it to jumping, as thats wasted air time.
Don says heels, when theres clearly several papers written against this ( http://www.waxmansgym.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78&Itemid=27 )
The weight distribution in the foot is constantly changing, and no your knees do not need to full straighten, but when you extend your hips you better be pushing through the floor as hard as you goddamn can. If done with light weights, you will probably jump (or tripled extend). Now the goal of weightlifting is to get to the point of full extension as fast and efficiently as you can, but staying in that extended position for the shortest amount of time possible. Remember, the tension in the hip flexors will create tension in the system to allow the lifter to descend under the bar quickly. If done correctly and efficiently, the lifter should be fully extended as quick as possible, for the shortest ammount of time. So in lame-mans terms, you want the timing of your “3rd pull” to be right after extension, so that your feet barely leave the floor (most lifters do, Rob Adell is very efficient and doesnt really move his feet, yet in his most recent videos it looks like Broz got him out of that habit in the clean)
TLDR; Push through and extend fully while timing your vicious pull under the bar at the point of extension (note: does not mean overpulling)
Again, I advise you to read my coaches research library of several papers on weightlifting, as this argument can go on forever and the math can speak for itself.
http://www.waxmansgym.com on the side is a tab for the Resarch Library (Im the dude in the picture for the snatch seminar on the slide show)
had to choose “other” because there was no option for “fat piece of shit on the ground”
ealonzo,
I think your analysis of what occurs during the lift is pretty correct. But I think you may be debating the wrong topic. I don’t believe anyone is denying that triple extension occurs – I’m certainly not. The hips definitely come past 180 degrees, the knees may not fully extend but they get close, and there is usually at least some degree of plantar flexion. The issue being discussed is, what is the best way to get lifters to do this correctly? I can get into triple extension with my weight too far forward, no problem. But it’s not an effective way to lift. The bar being in the lifters hands moves the center of mass forward and down – this is what differentiates the snatch or clean from jumping. Thus, I believe it is far more effective for the lifter to be focused on finishing in the heels, as it will likely result in the correct distribution of the weight in the foot, and therefore the most effective and powerful hip extension. Much like cuing “heels” in the squat – for most of the lift, the weight is actually in the midfoot, but the bar wants to push the lifter forward, so we cue him to go back. Cues and the actual mechanical occurrences in the lift are not always the same thing. So the question is, what is the most effective way to get the lifter to put the bar in the right place, get the body into the right positions, and thus complete the lift in the most effective manner? I say that by teaching the lifter to “jump and shrug,” we create tendencies to let the bar stay out in front and finish too far forward in the foot, whereas when we teach the “catapult,” we enable the lifter to keep the bar back, tension the hamstrings, and finish with the proper weight distribution. This is somewhat of an aside, but I would contest that a lifter finishing with the weight a little too far back in the foot is a much more desirable fault than finishing with the weight too far forward in the foot.
“My question to the rabbling quorum is: do you think that a period of time no longer than six months of a “jumping” emphasis is helpful or harmful to long term weightlifting skill?”
It’s not easy to generalize. Some lifters will over time be able to find for themselves how to improve efficiency, while others may need to be told what to do mechanically throughout their time lifting. For myself, I first learned to power clean using the emphasis on jumping, yet still managed to transition away from that over time without ever consciously trying or being told to do so. So there were no ill effects for my own case. And at the very beginning, there doesn’t seem to be any good alternative to the jump instruction. It may be okay to keep that emphasis until the clean gets close to bodyweight (which shouldn’t take 6 months in normal populations), I imagine, at which point the lifter/coach should look to refine the instruction towards a more efficient technique.
“Rabbling quorum: do you agree or disagree with this sentiment?”
Disagree for a few reasons. 1st, for non-weightlifting athletes, generating power from knee extension (call it leg drive perhaps) is more valuable than that from hip extension, and for this the jumping technique is much more sport specific. The athlete won’t be able to clean as much weight this way, but that should never have been the prime objective to begin with – it should be the improvement in sports performance.
2nd, for weightlifting and non-weightlifting athletes, I think they should always pull as hard as possible under the constraints that (a) the correct positions are maintained at each point throughout the lift and (b) once the pull is finished (when that is exactly being left open to argument) the emphasis is on getting under the bar as quickly as possible, these caveats being the crucial matter. Done correctly, the lifter shouldn’t ‘float’, rather the result would be receiving the bar in a higher position (of course this would indicate that the weight was sub maximal).
On shrugging, my opinion – lifters learning the Olympic lifts should never be instructed to shrug. Like trying to pull while bending the elbows, it’s a power leak, as well as an additional complicating variable.
Yawn. Also, thank you for finally setting links to open in a new window, rather than in the current one. That makes me crazy, and the change is long overdue.
Wish I cared.
-Tsypkin
Hey Justin, just thought I’d respond back to the comment you left me on the “logging progress” post. I thought that you were saying that the workout pictured (with the reps at 315 at the end) WAS your first day back, aka your light day, which is why I was so confused. My apologies, good sir.
“This doesn’t mean weightlifting is on a pedestal with respect to powerlifting”
Sorry to go off track with the discussion, but I have a caveat with that opinion.
I put weightlifting on a very high pedestal compared to powerlifting and as a matter of fact I wish there was no affiliation or connection between the two. I’ve examined and interviewed oly lifters and powerlifters and although I find powerlifters intelligent, they’re still mainly meat heads.
On the other hand, I’ve found the Oly lifters to be more well rounded and normal. I feel that is reflective in the qualities of the sports. Powerlifting requires minimal athletic traits compared to weightlifting. Traits such as Speed, flexibility, agility, coordination, accuracy, and balance. This is what I find makes Olympiclifting not only complelling to watch, but aesthetically speaking, it’s almost an art form.
Put it to Pavarotti and watch it in slow motion. Its beauty gives you chills. If you listen to Pavarotti while watching Pavarotti, it will almost make you laugh.
To demonstrate my point, pause Pavarotti singing, “Nessum Dorma”at 2:02 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdTBml4oOZ8
Then pause Kendrick at 10 seconds in,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXEq3OeD68o&list=FLLZ1V2gM7LtKAsKJqy2wrtQ&index=9&feature=plpp_video
Then play Pavarotti while watching Kendrick and tell me if you don’t get chills
*I Meant if you listen to Pavarotti while watching powerlifting, it will almost make you laugh.
Although if you listen to Pavarotti while watching Pavarotti eat a snadwhich, it’s fucking hysterical.
**sandwich
God damn it, Justin! There needs to be a comment preview on this site.
@set2fathoms
I did what you said about Pavarotti and Kendrick Farris and it matched well. How much time did you spend figuring that out?
@Yosh
Well, I’ve been working on writing something about Olympic Weightlifting and Art for a number of years. I work in a field where people wear very tight jeans. I also wear tight jeans as it allows me to fit in the system. Any who, I’ve often told these people about my love of weightlifting and how I find a very direct comparison in the training with the creative process…That’s usually when they start to think I’m a meathead. That’s when but I pull out videos of Oly lifters in slow motion and play classical music in the background. Jaws then drop followed by an annoying rhetoric by me, similar to this one.
Short Answer: About 15 minutes
Long Answer: About 3 1/2 years
Ohh, can I have a go, set2fathoms?
Try listening to the Winter concerto of Vivaldi’s Four Seasons whilst watching Konstantinovs. Is it beautiful? No. It’s Brutal and Epic and Powerful. And you don’t have to watch it in slow motion…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdp2hEsc2kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYt7H-pzEe4
(start the KK clip ~10 secs after the Vivaldi clip)
And Pavarotti? Opera? Harden the fuck up! Opera is so 1780s. I would have held my tongue if you’d at least used some Wagner. But Pucchini? Fucking Turandot? Honestly? HONESTLY?
PS: Fact: Pavarotti looks more like a powerlifter kinda guy and apparently he was strong like an Ox…but hopeless at the Oly lifts.
Now get back to shaving your legs and listening to Madame Butterfly.
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Picked Strength And Conditioning/GPP since I use most lifting as a supplement to Jiu Jitsu training, specifically for two upcoming competitions.
As for Jumpshrug Vs. Catapult, I thought I might offer my Noob-ish perspective. I’ve been taught both techniques, with Jumpshrug coming first, and my trainer consistently telling me, “This is a good movement to get down for now, to get a feel for the pull off the floor and the grip, but it’s not going to work once the weight starts to get heavier.” And sure enough, as the numbers crept up over time, there was the need to shift to the Catapult method.
I don’t think the Catapult method would have been easy for me to grasp at first on it’s own. As my training developed, I was also working on overhead squatting and high hang snatching/cleaning as well, so I think this in conjunction with the Jumpshrug technique at lighter weights was the way to go.
So maybe there’s validity in both?
Great post and responses so far. This kind of stuff makes me want to ditch work and go throw some weight around.
set2fathoms has NO dick. You watch Mike Tuscherer pull a deadlift or watch Sam Byrd squat. That shit is fucking art.
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