“Damn it man, I’m trying to save an innocent life!”
“I love ya, always have.”
Dude – killer website. I enjoy all the humor and content…great for motivation on slow days.
I do have a question though: I’ve always had really bad knees. My father and grandfather have both had knee surgery to repair bad knees. After trying crossfit and barely being able to walk after some wods (double unders, box jumps, etc really kill the knees), I went to the doc to get x-rays, and I pretty much have no cartilage in my knee joints and have bad tendinitis of the patellae tendon. I don’t want to give up though as I think building more strength in the hamstrings and quads will really help my knee stability and keep my knees from hurting so bad.
Have you had any clients with issues like this? What type of stretching or exercises would you have them do before or after a squat day to help the knee rehab a bit more and keep them lifting without having to take days off for the knee to recover?
–Joey
I’ve responded to Joey, but I thought the topic was worthy of discussion. Here are a few points.
- The fact that Joey’s father and grandfather have bad knees is irrelevant. The development of the skeletal anatomy is primarily dependent on its mechanical environment. This means that it is an individualized thing, and thus the familial problems are coincidental.
- Doing a bunch of ridiculous things in a conditioning workout when unadapted can yield some problematic consequences. Be aware of this if you are training/coaching others, or if you are trying stuff out on your own.
- A lack of cartilage is not something I would classify in the category “awesome”.
- If Joey learns how to squat with the method that we teach, then his pain may go away entirely. The squat, when done correctly, is a knee neutral exercise; the net anterior/posterior force acting on the knee is equal because the hamstrings pull back on the tibia (when hip driving) while the quadriceps pull anteriorly via the patellar tendon, patella, and patellar ligament to extend the knee. All of these structures are strengthened accordingly.
- As far as the patellar tendonitis is concerned, it depends on where the tendonitis is. Stretching the quadriceps can help decrease any potential tendonitis above the patella, which is typically a symptom of letting the knees slide forward at the bottom of the squat.
- There is a limited amount of information on Joey, but his pain will probably go away if the structures adapt to the strength training. Assuming he has problems six weeks from now, many people have found that heating their knees prior to squatting helps warm them up for the ensuing activity. Many have also found that icing their knees after squatting does not really help much. This is probably due to tendons having poor vascularization, thus their lack of response to ice. But this all depends on what problem a particular person is experiencing.
- The best stretches for the quadriceps are any that have the knee in complete flexion while the hip is in extension. Remember, the rectus femoris (one of the quadriceps) crosses both the knee joint and the hip joint. It extends the knee and flexes the hip, so reversing those movements will elongate the muscle belly. You can help extend your hip whether you are standing or kneeling by flexing the gluteals (or ass cheek) on the same side as the quadriceps you are trying to stretch.
While this summary is not comprehensive, hopefully it has helped Joey a little bit, helped anybody else that may have experienced a similar issue, or helped all you healthy people think about the complicated shit that goes on when you train.
———-
Jim wants to know what you think about his breakfast. So much that he made a video.
BREAKFAST! from Jim G-ville on Vimeo.
I’d probably have some more eggnog and less milk, since it will have some more calories (albeit more filling). It depends on what your body can handle though. Send pictures or videos here. I can’t guarantee they will go up, but I’ll make an effort. The more creative you are, the better the chances.
I hope I am not the only one who knows that quote, and the only one who stays up and waits for the post.
You”re not alone on either account AC.
I didn””t know the quote but a quick google search revealed the source but I won””t give it up. I””m with both of you on the second count.
A.C. I posted a comment to Justin””s yesterday””s post just minutes ago, but I figure this is a better place, it being more current and all.
How much did you squat increase on just the simple SS Novice linear progression model?
It doesn’t count if you have to Google it.
–Justin
So, if the Beers beat Detroit and Denver beats Atlanta in the American Southwestern Division East Northern, then Milwaukee goes to the Denslow Cup, unless Baltimore can upset Buffalo and Charlotte ties Toronto, then Oakland would play LA and Pittsburgh in a blind choice round robin. And if no clear winner emerges from all of this, a two-man sack race will be held on consecutive Sundays until a champion can be crowned.
What concerns Joey””s situation, I””m more or less on the same boat … I””ve had knee problems for years and sometimes had to avoid squatting(and of course running – which has been a LONG time ago)for long periods of time.
Nevertheless, I managed to get my squat to 517 and my deadlift to 550lbs @ 165lbs BW, 23 years old.
Things that help:
– Avoiding everything that hurts.
– Like Justin says, proper hip drive on the back squat. If I rely on knee extension my knees immediately let me know.
Ironically, on front squats(which are almost completely knee extension), I have no pain.
– I do a mobility circuit before a training session and stretch afterwards. I stretch my hips a lot and also stretch my psoas/quadriceps by putting a foot behind me on a bench, then lowering myself(sort of like a Bulgarian split squat).
– I know I progress best on a higher frequency of squatting, but my knees simply can not take twice a week squatting for many consecutive weeks, no matter how carefully planned they are.
Right now I train like this:
Week 1: Squat and dead on Mon and Squat on Fri
Week 2: Squat and dead on Wed
This way I still train my squat trice every 2 weeks.
I made a huge post over on the Dave Draper/Dan John forum about this, but I””m not sure external linking is allowed.
3 things:
– How tall are you? If you gained 33 pounds you would be a monster in the 198 class.
– I am willing to bet if you increase your muscular bodyweight, some of your knee pain will go away because of the increased mechanical efficiency due to your levers working better.
– You can post the external link to their site. Certain forums may not be, but my understanding is that Dan John is a good guy. Hell, we should try and interview him.
–Justin
A lot of people swear by those foam roller things. I say get active about prehabing and rehabing those knees. I got shoulder tendinitis and a wonky elbow for which I””m constantly doing strengthening exercises with bands and such. Helps to warm up and keep the supportive musculature strong for the big lifts.
Squatting is prehab and rehab for us. Wonky is an excellent adjective. We have found that forearm rolls and grip work can alleviate elbow tendonitis. I bet your shoulder can be helped — do you press?
–Justin
“Because you”re a piece of shit.”
“I am not a piece of shit!”
“Yeah, but you”re a little bitch.”
“Goddammit! I swear if you guys rip on me 13 or 14 more times… I”m outta here!”
tnumrych
I went up to 360 earlier this year, Had a little time off. Got up to 405 and hurt my hop flexor. Knees coming forward at the bottom. So I restarted at 225 and made it to 450.
Jim, that breakfast is better than mine. I cant eat breakfast anymore. I burnt out on eggs man.
I am going to talk about this soon.
–Justin
My name is Joey, and I power clean & bench more than I squat. No seriously, I do…seriously.
Thanks for the info. Working hard to get dem huge A.C. legs. SS ordered from Amazon just now.
Leeuwer – That”s pretty much dead on with what I see…besides the fact that you are a beast with a 500+ squat at 165 lbs. Monster.
“So, you”ve got children?”
“Well not yet, but I was hoping that you could help me with that.”
“So you want me to marry you, then?”
“Well, it”s a bit sudden but alright.”
Ate a quadruple cheeseburger and drank four cups of milk for breakfast. Starting the day off right with 1500 calories.
Jim- You need add an additional piece of meat to that B-Fast. Like a Cheeseburger, or some leftover Brisket from the night before.
Ego nunquam pronunciari mendacium! Sed ego sum homo indomitus.
[I never lie. But I am a savage]
Jim-As has been said, a delicious cheeseburger, or pound of hamburger would go great with that.. I”m not an eggnog type myself but throw some whey into the milk while you”re at it…
“With that new liver he”ll be peeing like a champ in no time!”
Why did the Braveheart quotes start popping up? Great movie, but not the one people were previously quoting.
The “love you always have” piece is from both movies, so people pulling from both flicks I guess.
I used to not be able to sit down for more than a few minutes without my knees hurting. A chiro told me lifting was bad, but to do leg extensions for it. Instead I learned how to squat as taught by Rip, and now I have zero pain or knee problems. Not sure if this is related to his problems, but my knees love deep squats.
And that breakfast looks damn good. I need egg nog.
“Cock, beer?”
Great movie. Orgazmo was good too. I chugged a quart of eggnog saturday while my wife looked on in disgust.
A.C., what took longer, time getting to 360/405 in the first place or time from reset at 225 to 450?
Time to get to 360, I was only squatting twice a week till that. Then to go to 405 went quickly because I was squatting 3 times a week.
The reset was quick.
Hmm thats interesting A.C. How long do you think it would take to lose all or most of the strength in the quads, withotu doing any training?
I””ve also found my knees hurt during squats but going ass to grass (or deep squats are they called?) helped it considerably. Do you think its better to do the normal 90 degree (or so) squat or to go all the way down?
Cheers
Read the post, dude. We teach a specific style of squatting for a reason.
–Justin
Personally I think Jim has a fine breakfast. Adding any gratuitous amounts of meat will not be practical.
pretty solid breakfast.
pretty solid mustache.
Thanks guys for the props on my breakfast and the mustache…
Thanks for starting this site Justin- before it I didn”t realize that the “universe doesn”t give a shit about weight to body weight ratios.”
This is a great breakfast, and I think adding meat to it would be a waste, really..
Just a guess, but it looks lke a 1,500 calorie meal with about 70 grams of protein.. More meat here seems to me like it should be saved for the next meal.
Good job Jim.
Baseketball.
Ironmind”s MILO journal has a great article this month by Steve Jack about the “I want to get big … but I don”t want to get fat” complex.
Some of the more awesome quotes:
“I am not endorsing getting fat for fat’s sake. But what I am saying is that anyone who has grabbed that iron and felt something deep in their bones and DNA say, yes, my son . . . this is your destiny!— that person never wastes his time or breath (or anyone else’s) by saying something silly like, ”I want to get big . . . but not fat.””
“I’ll never forget the conversation I had with Marvin Eder late one night after the annual Oldetime Barbell & Strongmen dinner in New Jersey. ”What’s with these
Draconian diets these days,” he began. “When I was moving all that iron, Steve, I ate EVERYTHING: pastrami, chocolate cake—it didn’t matter. My body was a nuclear furnace, I burned everything I ate!” The mad, old sage
had me so fired up by the end of our discussion that it took me an hour and a half to fall asleep.”
“[M]ost beginning or misguided lifters are getting the cart before the horse. Instead of focusing on guzzling a gallon of milk or consuming 6,000 calories a day, they should be focusing on the kind of workout that demands that kind of fuel! Believe me, it exists . . . and believe me, if you follow it, you will get big!”
Steve Perry!
Dude, I thought we said no more Journey psyche-outs!?
This is one of my favorite quotes.
–Justin
””””As far as the patellar tendonitis is concerned, it depends on where the tendonitis is. Stretching the quadriceps can help decrease any potential tendonitis above the patella, which is typically a symptom of letting the knees slide forward at the bottom of the squat.””””
Just something on this – I currently have quad tendonitis (pain above the patella). I””””ve been seeing a physio about this who is actually pretty good, and he explicitly told me not to stretch the quads, that it would irritate the insertion of the tendon into the patella. Rehab he has given me is to work the quad tendons hard with weights but not to put the joint into that much flex, so no deep squats until it recovers – partials (sadly) and leg extension, as heavy and explosive as possible.
I realise that is against the method discussed in Rip””””s Q&A, but thought I””””d pass on what I””””d been told. The physio looks after our national volleyball team so patellar tendonitis is an injury he has to deal with effectively and quickly all the time
Will let you know if it works!
The question that you should be asking is why should you rehab an injury in a way that does not use the full range of motion of the joint? Do you want it to heal in a partial range of motion?
Oh, and Kelly Starrett, a PT with his head out of his ass, has given the advice to stretch the quadriceps when patellar tendonitis is a problem.
–Justin
Up until recently I have been doing something along the lines of a mid-bar squat. The bar wasn””t high up on the traps like high-bar, but I””m pretty certain it wasn””t low enough either. On Monday I made a conscious effort to set the bar lower than usual (dropped the weight from 395 to 335 for new position). Afterward it felt like I had a sunburn on one side of my back. Today I went for 345 and noticed where it felt like a sunburn, a bit of blood had seeped onto my shirt. Thinking about it, it””s either the skin there is not adapted to the weight, or I””m allowing the bar to torque a little much and it””s making tiny tears in the skin. Looking in the mirror (somewhat difficult), there is what looks like a sunburn in the shape of the bar and no obvious cut. Any similar experiences or suggestions?
I can’t see from here. Read “Starting Strength” for clarification.
–Justin
Hey Justin:
– How tall are you? If you gained 33 pounds you would be a monster in the 198 class.
Very true … I””m only 5””8.
I””m working very hard at the moment to get up to 185, then take it from there. Strength is going well.
– I am willing to bet if you increase your muscular bodyweight, some of your knee pain will go away because of the increased mechanical efficiency due to your levers working better.
That””s an excellent observation man. My experience is that in the past, every time I lost weight I got injured, or at least had more inflammations in my knees and wrists. I really do believe it to be true that my body needs the support from the added muscle to “keep it together”.
I””m doing slightly higher reps on my squats(10)and all other assistance work and deadlifts in order to put more focus on gains through increased muscle mass vs. increased neurological efficiency, which I assume is most responsible for getting me to this point.
– You can post the external link to their site. Certain forums may not be, but my understanding is that Dan John is a good guy. Hell, we should try and interview him.
True as hell. Before Rip””s stuff I learned my o-lifts through his e-books.
This is the link, hope nobody minds the ramble.
http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/19868/post/519454/hl//fromsearch/1/#519454
Joey, lots of luck on getting better mate. Just don””t get depressed over it, it””s just an obstacle to overcome.
I would also question your program (without knowing anything about it) as a potential source for joint irritation.
–Justin
Forgot to mention it, but reps on deadlifts and assistance are 6, not 10 like for squats.
@Justin- Good point about squats being our medicine. Should I get H1N1 you will most likely find me at the gym squatting it into submission.
The wonkiness in my left elbow is because I dislocated it half a year ago (rugby) and there”s some residual pain/stiffness; I also have tendonitis of the rotator cuff from another injury 10+ years ago (also rugby). Both of these conditions are manageable if I take the time to take care of them with plenty of warming up and stretching, and I don”t let either of them stop me from lifting. When pain flares up usually ice and tylenol will do the trick.
So, as far as Joey”s knees are concerned, I speak from complete ignorance and was just trying to apply my own knowledge of rehabing the body to the knee area, though obviously knees are a whole other animal entirely.
forgot to mention that yes despite the bad shoulder I love to press and am currently at 155x3sx5r
I hate to be the triple-posting idiot but I have to point out that while I don”t have any pain, ever since I started the linear progression my knees have been popping like crazy. Anyone else notice this too?
Eligius
I have the same problem every now and then. The left side where the bar sits rips a little. I”ve bled only on my left side, and thats the side it only happens on.